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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dear All,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>My mother tongue PASHTO (Eastern Iranian) also exhibits the same
meaning for the verb ‘see’.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Example: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span
style='font-size:13.5pt'>zə ba ta sara gorəm</span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> I shall you with
see <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> I shall see your ability (challenging)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>M. Kamal Khan <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Discussion List for
ALT [mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Alex
Francois<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 29, 2013 3:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: grammaticalization query: 'see' to 'VERIFY'<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p>dear Misha and Timur,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I'm aware of some languages that use the verb “see” with a conative (TRY) or
verificational (VERIF) meaning even when seeing is not involved.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>One example is indeed Mandarin <span style='font-family:"MS Gothic"'>看</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><em><span style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span></em><span
style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><em>kàn</em>, cited by André Müller.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Another example is French. The infinitive <em>voir</em> (literally ‘see’)
follows certain imperative verbs to add a meaning of tentativeness or
conativity:<o:p></o:p></p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0>
<tr>
<td width=39 style='width:29.25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>(1)<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=64 style='width:48.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><em>écoute</em><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=49 style='width:36.75pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><em><b><span style='color:blue'>Voir</span></b></em><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=37 style='width:27.75pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>(si<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=36 style='width:27.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>tu<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=74 style='width:55.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>entends<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=48 style='width:.5in;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>sa<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=53 style='width:39.75pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>voix)<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=52 style='width:39.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=39 style='width:29.25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'></td>
<td width=64 style='width:48.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>listen<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=49 style='width:36.75pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>TRY<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=37 style='width:27.75pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>if<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=36 style='width:27.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>you<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=74 style='width:55.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>hear<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=48 style='width:.5in;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>her<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=53 style='width:39.75pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>voice<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=52 style='width:39.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=39 style='width:29.25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'></td>
<td width=414 colspan=8 style='width:310.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>‘(try to) listen if you can hear her voice.’<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0>
<tr>
<td width=39 style='width:29.25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>(2)<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=64 style='width:48.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><em>goûte</em><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=49 style='width:36.75pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><em><b><span style='color:blue'>voir</span></b>!</em><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=37 style='width:27.75pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'></td>
<td width=36 style='width:27.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'></td>
<td width=74 style='width:55.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'></td>
<td width=48 style='width:.5in;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'></td>
<td width=53 style='width:39.75pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'></td>
<td width=52 style='width:39.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=39 style='width:29.25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'></td>
<td width=64 style='width:48.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>taste<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=49 style='width:36.75pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>TRY<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=37 style='width:27.75pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'></td>
<td width=36 style='width:27.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'></td>
<td width=74 style='width:55.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'></td>
<td width=48 style='width:.5in;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'></td>
<td width=53 style='width:39.75pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'></td>
<td width=52 style='width:39.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=39 style='width:29.25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'></td>
<td width=414 colspan=8 style='width:310.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>‘Try this (to check out the taste).’<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>I also found the same semantic link in certain Oceanic languages of Vanuatu.<br>
The language <b>Lemerig</b> (2 speakers, northern Vanua Lava) uses the verb <em>’et</em>
/ʔɛt/ ‘see’ as a conative postverbal particle <em>ten</em> (TRY):<o:p></o:p></p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0>
<tr>
<td width=56 style='width:42.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>(3)<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=62 style='width:46.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>Lēlqön̄<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=56 style='width:42.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>e,<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=56 style='width:42.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>në<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=61 style='width:45.75pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>m-ta<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=56 style='width:42.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><strong><span style='color:red'>’et</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=56 style='width:42.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>wë<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=56 style='width:42.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>në<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=93 style='width:69.75pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>k‑mi'ir,<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=56 style='width:42.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>pa<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=56 style='width:42.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>niv.<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=56 style='width:42.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'></td>
<td width=62 style='width:46.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>in.night<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=56 style='width:42.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>DEF<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=56 style='width:42.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>1sg<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=61 style='width:45.75pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>PRF‑do<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=56 style='width:42.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>TRY<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=56 style='width:42.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>COMP<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=56 style='width:42.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>1sg<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=93 style='width:69.75pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>1sg:Irr‑sleep<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=56 style='width:42.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>but<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=56 style='width:42.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>no<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=56 style='width:42.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'></td>
<td width=607 colspan=10 style='width:455.25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>’Last night I <strong>tried</strong> to find some sleep,
but <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>no way<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal>.'<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p>Lemerig <em>’et</em> /<strong>ʔɛt</strong>/ ‘see/TRY’ has cognate forms in
neighbouring languages: Vera'a <em> ’ēn</em> /<strong>ʔɪn</strong>/ ‘see’
+ Vurës <em>ten</em> /<strong>tɛn</strong>/ ‘TRY’. <br>
The three forms are regular reflexes of a single protoform *<em>teⁿde</em>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>In <b>Vurës</b>, the grammaticalisation process has <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>reached its
end: the word <em><span style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>ten</span></em>
has lost its original meaning ‘see’ and is only used synchronically as a
postverbal particle with conative meaning (TRY):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0>
<tr>
<td width=39 style='width:29.25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>(4)<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=86 style='width:64.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><em>Ru</em><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=54 style='width:40.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><em>tur</em><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=42 style='width:31.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><em>kal</em><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=44 style='width:33.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><em><b><span style='color:red'>ten</span></b></em><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=58 style='width:43.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><em>na</em><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=47 style='width:35.25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><em>ēl</em><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=49 style='width:36.75pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><em><b><span style='color:red'>ten</span></b>!</em><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=39 style='width:29.25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'></td>
<td width=86 style='width:64.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt'>Imper:Dual</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=54 style='width:40.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt'>stand</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=42 style='width:31.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt'>up</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=44 style='width:33.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt'>TRY</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=58 style='width:43.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt'>1sg:Irr</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=47 style='width:35.25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt'>see</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=49 style='width:36.75pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.5pt'>TRY</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=39 style='width:29.25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'></td>
<td width=381 colspan=7 style='width:285.75pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal>[looking for a knife]<br>
‘<strong>Try</strong> standing up so I can [<strong>try</strong> to] have a
look!’<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p>Yet the etymology of this <em>ten</em> is suggested by Lemerig<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> – as well
as other examples of the same semantic shift in other languages of the world.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p>all the best<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Al<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>e<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal>x.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>___<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#45818E;background:white'>Alex François<br>
<a href="http://lacito.vjf.cnrs.fr/membres/francois.htm" target="_blank">LACITO-CNRS</a>,
France<br>
<a href="http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/people/personal/frana_ling.php"
target="_blank">Australian National University</a>, Canberra<br>
<a href="http://alex.francois.free.fr" target="_blank">http://alex.francois.free.fr</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>__________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>2013/7/28 André Müller <<a
href="mailto:esperantist@gmail.com" target="_blank">esperantist@gmail.com</a>><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Dear Michael & Timur,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Although not quite as high on the grammaticalization scale
as the Archi and Agul examples, and with a slightly different meaning, a similar
construction does exist in Mandarin Chinese. I don't have Heine & Kuteva
2004 at hand, so I'm not sure if they mention this.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal>The full verb <span style='font-family:"MS Gothic"'>看</span>
(kàn, lit. 'to see') is used – often in reduplicated form – after other verbs
to convey the meaning 'to check out', so <span style='font-family:"MS Gothic"'>吃看看</span>
(chī kànkan, lit. 'eat see') means 'to try', referring to food, <span
style='font-family:"MS Gothic"'>听看看</span> (tīng kànkan, lit. 'listen see')
means 'to check out by hearing'.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
This construction isn't verificational in the strict sense, as it doesn't
verify a previous statement. It can be used for "checking out"
something unknown, but it can also be used for statements. <span
style='font-family:"MS Gothic"'>你吃看看，那个是不是太辣。</span> (Nǐ chī kànkan, nèi ge shì
bú shì tài là; lit. you eat see~see, that CLF is not is too spicy) "Eat
and try if this is too spicy."<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal>Greetings,<br>
- André Müller<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal>(MPI EVA & Uni Bamberg)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal>2013/7/28 Michael Daniel <<a
href="mailto:misha.daniel@gmail.com" target="_blank">misha.daniel@gmail.com</a>><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Dear all,<br>
<br>
in two Lezgic (East Caucasian) languages, Archi and Agul, there is a(n
apparently rare) morphological category of verificative, or verificational. Its
meaning is 'check whether P is true', where P is the lexical verb with its
dependents. Here is an Archi example, with VERIF in the infinitive:<br>
<br>
qalal-a
jašul adam
i-r-k:u-s<br>
palace-IN inside
person 4.be-INTRG-VERIF-INF<br>
'(He went inside) in order to see whether there was anyone inside the palace.
(4 is the agreement class)'<br>
<br>
The following Agul example with VERIF in the past tense shows that VERIF
introduces its own argument ('one who checks'):<br>
<br>
gadaji
ruš qušunaj-čuk’-une.<br>
boy(ERG) girl go_away.PF.RES-VERIF-AOR<br>
'The boy checked, whether the girl has gone away.'<br>
<br>
(See also this handout for further details: <a
href="http://lingvarium.org/maisak/publ/Maisak_Leipzig2009.pdf" target="_blank">http://lingvarium.org/maisak/publ/Maisak_Leipzig2009.pdf</a>)<br>
<br>
In both languages, the construction seems to result from grammaticalization of
the verb 'see' (Archi ak:u- and its Agul cognate). The development seems to be
historically and areally independent.<br>
<br>
Although there is a number of grammaticalization paths in which this verbal
meaning is involved (see Heine and Kuteva 2004: 269-270; and other
developments, including evidential-like meanings), we are unaware of the verb
'see' grammaticalizing into categories similar to Archi/Agul verificative. We
would be happy to learn of any comparable, in functional semantics terms,
evidence from other languages.<br>
<br>
Michael Daniel and Timur Maisak<br>
<br>
(if convenient, copy both of us when replying to this message)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
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