<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"><base href="x-msg://256/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Dear Misha, Timur, et al.,<div><br></div><div>its author isn't on the ball today, which must mean he is vacationing in some out of the way place (such as the hinterland of Debrecen); so on his behalf let me draw your attention to an article that is forthcoming in LT 17(2) 2013 (to come out before ALT 10), introducing LT's new feature "What exactly is ...?":<div><br></div><div>Vincent, Nigel. 2013. Conative. LT 17. 269-289.</div><div><br></div><div>In his survey of grammaticalised forms/constructions for expressing (unsuccessfully) attempted rather than completed actions, Nigel (p178) also mentions periphrastic constructions with 'see', widespread in Papuan languages (source: Foley 1986: 152).</div><div><br></div><div>Further down on that page we meet the Burmese "experimentative", and so on.</div><div><br></div><div>If you have sufficient evidence for a separate "verificative", do write it up! We don't want "What exactly is ...?" to end up instantiating a conative, tentative, frustrative or some such undesirable notion.</div><div><br></div><div>Frans</div><div><div><br>
<br><div><div>On Jul 29, 2013, at 5:20 PM, Claude Hagége <<a href="mailto:claude-hagege@WANADOO.FR">claude-hagege@WANADOO.FR</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="FR" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande'; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Dear Michael and Timur,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> The Lezgic verificative you mention is fairly particular, since it illustrates a clear grammaticalisation process, as shown 1) by the attrition of Archi<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>ak:u</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>”see” into<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>-k:u-</i> in your first example; 2) by the insertion of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>-k:u-</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> and Agul<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>–čuk’-</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>into the verbal complex, which can be considered as a proof of their treatment as parts of the morphology of these Lezgic languages.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> This the reason why I am not sure that French<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>voir</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>cited by Alec and Mandarin</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">看</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">kàn</span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>cited by André correspond to the same phenomenon, let alone that<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">看</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>does not mean “see” but “look at”; it takes the resultative meaning “see” only when suffixed by<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">见</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">jiàn</span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">, yielding<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">看见</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">kànjiàn</span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">, just as another perception verb,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">听</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">tīng</span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">“listen to”, yields, when suffixed by the same </span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">见</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">jiàn</span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>element, a compound verb<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">听见</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "></span><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">tīngjiàn</span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>“hear”. Muhammad’s Pashto example exhibits a verb<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>gor</i></span><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">ə</span></i><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">m</span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>”I see” (by the way, Osmanli and Azeri Turkish, another family, have<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>gör(mek)</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>and<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>gör(m</i></span><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">ə</span></i><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">k)</span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">respectively “to see”!), which is simply the normal lexical use of a verb, in a special meaning.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 35.4pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">The Vanuatu Oceanic examples cited by Alec seem closer to the Lezgic phenomena, since one of them represents the last step of a grammaticalisation process.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 35.4pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">One can also mention a certain use of Japanese<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>miru</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>“to see” in such sentences as</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">行って</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">み</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">ま</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">しよう</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>i(k)-tte mi-ma(s)-yoo (go-CONVERB see-POLITENESS-EXHORTATIVE)<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">“</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">let</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">’</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">s go</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">”</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(with an implication that there is something to be seen). The use of the -<i>te</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> converbal form here in association with the verb<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>mi(ru)</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">“</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">see</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">”</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>may be considered as a syntactic, rather than morphological, phenomenon. But what it expresses is in fact a tentative meaning. I would therefore characterize these uses of Chinese<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>k</i></span><i><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">à</span></i><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">n</span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">, French<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>voir</i>or Japanese<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>mi(ru)</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>as tentative uses. I propose calling tentative this kind of expression. However, this is not exactly the same as the Lezgic morphemes cited by Michael and Timur, because they don</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">’</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">t have a tentative, but a verificative meaning. To that extent, these Lezgig facts remain particular.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">All best.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Claude Hag</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">è</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">ge<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "> </span></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></body></html>