<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=Windows-1252">
</head>
<body dir="auto">
<div>Hopefully it is much better elsewhere. It wasn't my experience in the UK or in Germany that it was better however. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Dan<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On Sep 17, 2013, at 15:29, "Nigel Vincent" <<a href="mailto:nigel.vincent@manchester.ac.uk">nigel.vincent@manchester.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: 10pt;">Dan,<br>
That's where I think we disagree. I think there's a lot more international variation than you allow. I can't speak for the situation in the US, of which I have no experience, but I don't think you can generalise from that to the rest of the world.<br>
Best,<br>
Nigel<br>
<br>
<div><br>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px">
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px">
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px">
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px">
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px">
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px">Professor Nigel Vincent, FBA<br>
Professor Emeritus of General & Romance Linguistics<br>
The University of Manchester<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><br>
<div>Vice-President for Research & HE Policy, The British Academy</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Linguistics & English Language<br>
School of Arts, Languages and Cultures<br>
</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>The University of Manchester</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>Manchester M13 9PL</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>UK</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<a href="http://staffprofiles.humanities.manchester.ac.uk/Profile.aspx?Id=nigel.vincent">http://staffprofiles.humanities.manchester.ac.uk/Profile.aspx?Id=nigel.vincent</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px">
<hr tabindex="-1">
<div style="direction: ltr;" id="divRpF50191"><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> Everett, Daniel [<a href="mailto:DEVERETT@bentley.edu">DEVERETT@bentley.edu</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 17, 2013 8:16 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nigel Vincent<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Caveat emptor<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div>I agree Nigel with some of this. But regardless of any jobs available outside academe, in the US at least there are far too many unemployed PhDs (read just about any issue of the Chronicle or work as an administrator above the level of chair). I am sure
this varies by country. But I doubt if it is by a great deal. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Dan<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On Sep 17, 2013, at 15:12, "Nigel Vincent" <<a href="mailto:nigel.vincent@manchester.ac.uk" target="_blank">nigel.vincent@manchester.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div style="direction:ltr; font-family:Tahoma; color:#000000; font-size:10pt">Dan,<br>
These are much more than anecdotes - they are rather evidence of a systematic pattern in many countries where recruiters for high level jobs in many domains are coming to look on a doctorate as a desirable or even a necessary qualification. In the UK a body
which has produced some interesting data on this is called 'Vitae' - see their recent publication entitled 'What do PhDs do? - downloadable at:
<a href="http://www.vitae.ac.uk/policy-practice/14769/What-Do-PhDs-Do.html" target="_blank">
http://www.vitae.ac.uk/policy-practice/14769/What-Do-PhDs-Do.html</a><br>
I share the view of those contributors to this exchange who have suggested that aiming at an academic career is by no means the only reason that people undertake PhDs. That doesn't mean we shouldn't advise interested students about the job prospects but, as
someone else said, a PhD programme is not simply a professional school for future academics.<br>
Best,<br>
Nigel<br>
<br>
<br>
<div><br>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px">
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px">
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px">
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px">
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px">
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px">Professor Nigel Vincent, FBA<br>
Professor Emeritus of General & Romance Linguistics<br>
The University of Manchester<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px"><br>
<div>Vice-President for Research & HE Policy, The British Academy</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Linguistics & English Language<br>
School of Arts, Languages and Cultures<br>
</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>The University of Manchester</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>Manchester M13 9PL</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>UK</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<a href="http://staffprofiles.humanities.manchester.ac.uk/Profile.aspx?Id=nigel.vincent" target="_blank">http://staffprofiles.humanities.manchester.ac.uk/Profile.aspx?Id=nigel.vincent</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:#000000; font-size:16px">
<hr tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRpF486985" style="direction:ltr"><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> Discussion List for ALT [<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>] on behalf of Everett, Daniel
[<a href="mailto:DEVERETT@BENTLEY.EDU" target="_blank">DEVERETT@BENTLEY.EDU</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 17, 2013 7:17 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Caveat emptor<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div>These are great anecdotes. But for everyone of these there are many times this who don't have such rewarding jobs. Or where the jobs come much later. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>PhDs involve significant enculturation. It is hard for those who finish them to be objective about them at first. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Dan<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On Sep 17, 2013, at 14:13, "KOUWENBERG,Silvia" <<a href="mailto:silvia.kouwenberg@UWIMONA.EDU.JM" target="_blank">silvia.kouwenberg@UWIMONA.EDU.JM</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><style>
<!--
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma}
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;
text-decoration:underline}
span.EmailStyle17
{font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D}
.MsoChpDefault
{font-size:10.0pt}
@page WordSection1
{margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in}
body
{direction:ltr;
font-family:Tahoma;
color:#000000;
font-size:10pt}
p
{margin-top:0;
margin-bottom:0}
body
{scrollbar-base-color:undefined;
scrollbar-highlight-color:undefined;
scrollbar-darkshadow-color:undefined;
scrollbar-arrow-color:undefined}
body
{scrollbar-base-color:undefined;
scrollbar-highlight-color:undefined;
scrollbar-darkshadow-color:undefined;
scrollbar-arrow-color:undefined}
body
{scrollbar-base-color:undefined;
scrollbar-highlight-color:undefined;
scrollbar-darkshadow-color:undefined;
scrollbar-arrow-color:undefined}
body
{scrollbar-base-color:undefined;
scrollbar-highlight-color:undefined;
scrollbar-darkshadow-color:undefined;
scrollbar-arrow-color:undefined}
-->
BODY {direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: 10pt;}P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}</style>
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Who says Linguistics does not prepare you for a professional career? One of my graduates holds one of the top positions in the Jamaica Defense Force – and
credits his Ph.D Linguistics with his meteoric rise in that institution. One of my Ph.D candidates rejected the opportunity to complete at the M.Phil level, because her long-term goal is to hold a very senior position in the Jamaican civil service, for which
a Ph.D is required. Et cetera.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Silvia</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"" lang="EN-US"> Discussion List for ALT [<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Donald Stilo<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 17, 2013 09:15 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Caveat emptor</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Dan,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">It seems to me that the trend in the 21<sup>st</sup> century education is that students now go for university degrees in those fields leading to “show-me-the-money” careers, even though the individual’s passion may be in the humanities
or certain social sciences that produce close-to-nil chances of employment. How many MBA’s, LLD’s, DDS’s are we going to produce before the house of cards collapses the way the banks did five years ago? A certain trend in the 90’s (and maybe now too) was that
MBA’s went into the work force in business positions, were soon disillusioned, and went back to get degrees in education to become teachers. I know countless Iranians whose passion may have been for, say, anthropology but whose families forbade that and forced
them into engineering or medicine (the <i>only</i> two choices) and produced successful ($) but unfulfilled sons and daughters. Or take the American friend of mine who went into Information Technology but lamented that he would like to have done English literature
instead and now in his 50’s feels it would be too hard to start all over again. If he had studied English lit, he may have ended up in the same job in IT anyway but may have been more fulfilled “on the side”. (Don’t many linguistics students go into IT?)</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">I am not trying to say we should play ostrich and stick our heads in the sand. So what if someone studies linguistics out of pure drive and innate love for language(s) but doesn’t find a job in the given field? That doesn’t mean
they won’t find other fulfilling ways to exercise that passion and, say, work on documenting some endangered language on their own time and perhaps with some money from their more lucrative profession. We have an obligation to young people in two directions:
A) warn them that there are very few real jobs in linguistics (and the like) and B) encourage them to pursue their true interests with the knowledge that they may not be able to make a living in that field and will have to look for a salary elsewhere and stick
with your interests as an avocation. (In rereading this I just saw Sebastian’s e-mail.) I’ve given that advice to various students who then followed their hearts in their studies, worked in other fields less interesting to them, while continuing their passion
as an avocation and they came to me years later (even 30 years later!) and thanked me.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">Opportunities sometimes come from strange directions, often seemingly out of nowhere. Paul Frommer (PhD in linguistics from USC with Bernard) was teaching writing and communication skills to business students and eventually created
the Na’vi language for the movie <i>Avatar</i> and is now all over the web (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na'vi_language" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na'vi_language</a>).</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">I myself left academia for 12 years out of disillusionment and pursued being a chef, a bartender, a word processor temp in lawyers’ firms and Lehman Brothers on Wall Street, ESL teacher, etc. but never gave up my passion for endangered
Iranian languages. I doggedly stuck with that pursuit (and reading typology books) <i>on the side</i> and after a wild and complex course of twists and turns of fate ended up at EVA in Leipzig for 11 years which allowed me to publish more than I ever had
before and do field work in Azerbaijan, Armenia, Israel, Los Angeles and New York (with the last speakers of an Iranian Jewish language), and Germany (often with speakers of languages I had only read about in books and never dreamt I would actually meet, but
Cologne's got 'em...).</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">Yes, we have an obligation to make prospective students aware of the problems in our fields but we are also charged with encouraging the human spirit, not dampening it.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">My best to all,</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Don</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sep 17, 2013, at 1:03 PM, Everett, Daniel wrote:</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sebastian,<br>
<br>
I think that the joy of doing the PhD fades for people when they see what they have received in exchange for it.<br>
<br>
On the one hand, there is this positive article that agrees with you: <a href="http://www.psmag.com/education/why-you-should-go-to-graduate-school-in-the-humanities-59821/" target="_blank">
http://www.psmag.com/education/why-you-should-go-to-graduate-school-in-the-humanities-59821/</a><br>
<br>
But it sidesteps the main issues. And it in effect admits that we have always admitted too many.<br>
<br>
A more realistic piece: <a href="http://www.kellimarshall.net/teaching-academia/phd-false-hope/" target="_blank">
http://www.kellimarshall.net/teaching-academia/phd-false-hope/</a><br>
<br>
And yet another popular-level blog: <a href="http://100rsns.blogspot.com/2011/04/55-there-are-too-many-phds.html" target="_blank">
http://100rsns.blogspot.com/2011/04/55-there-are-too-many-phds.html</a><br>
<br>
The main observation for me, however, is the adjunct professor situation. And that is what happens to too large a number of bright young PhDs in the humanities.<br>
<br>
-- Dan<br>
<br>
On Sep 17, 2013, at 5:59 AM, Sebastian Nordhoff wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, 16 Sep 2013 18:59:24 +0200, Everett, Daniel <<a href="mailto:DEVERETT@bentley.edu" target="_blank">DEVERETT@bentley.edu</a>> wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">I am posting this because linguistics is one of the disciplines I think needs to consider this seriously. There are too many academics in the liberal arts with no chance of full-time, secure employment in the area in which they have done
their PhD.</p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">I might note that there are job possibilities outside of "the area where they have done their PhD". Getting a PhD in Typology does not necessarily mean that the only career opportunities are within the, indeed restricted, field of academic
linguistics.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Best wishes</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Sebastian</p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>