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This is why I use the expression "person marking" rather than "agreement" or "cross-referencing".
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<div>Randy<br>
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<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; ">-----</span></span>
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<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ">
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<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ">
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<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana; "><span style="font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; "><b>Prof.
Randy J. LaPolla, PhD FAHA</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>（</span><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; font-size: 13px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Song">罗仁地</font></span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; ">）|
Head, Division of Linguistics and Multilingual Studies | Nanyang Technological University</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); "><br>
<span style="background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; ">HSS-03-80, 14 Nanyang Drive, Singapore 637332</span></span></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; "><span style="background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; "> | </span></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); "><span style="background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; ">Tel:
(65) 6592-1825 GMT+8h | Fax: (65) 6795-6525 | <a href="http://sino-tibetan.net/rjlapolla/">
http://sino-tibetan.net/rjlapolla/</a></span></span></span></div>
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<div>On 23 Aug, 2014, at 11:09 pm, Thomas E. Payne <<a href="mailto:tpayne@UOREGON.EDU">tpayne@UOREGON.EDU</a>> wrote:</div>
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<span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: blue;">This is a (perhaps naïve) question I have about many of the examples cited in this discussion. How do you know the relevant verb marking is really “agreeing with”/“cross-referencing” an NP internal
element, or whether it just happens to be coreferential with it?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: blue;">I’m thinking of English adversative constructions like: “My car died on me,” in which “me” just happens to be coreferential with the possessor of the subject. One can also say “My car died on her”
if, e.g., someone else were driving the car. Or “Her car died on me,” etc. While the coreferential examples may be more common, the others are possible. This is similar to “ethical dative” or “dative of interest” constructions. If one were to propose a “verb
agreement with NP-internal possessor of subject” construction, it would be important to show that it is<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>not</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>this type.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: blue;">Tom<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion List for ALT [<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Randy John LaPolla (Prof)<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday, August 23, 2014 4:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: Verbal agreement with NP-internal modifiers<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<o:p> </o:p></div>
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Hi Rachel,<o:p></o:p></div>
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The key to the Tangut person marking, and many other Tibeto-Burman systems, like Rawang/Dulong and to some extent Qiang, is that the system is hierarchical or includes a hierarchical component. So the marking is not really of role, but of person. So, for example,
in Rawang/Dulong, first person is marked in a clause regardless of the role the referent has, as direct argument, possessor, or whatever. In Qiang there is a set of non-actor person markings that can even mark a person not involved in the clause as an argument
at all, as in example (453.a) in the attached page from my Qiang grammar (the second clause, where there is no second person argument, but as the second person will be affected by her leaving, it takes second person non-actor marking--I call it "non-actor"
marking because there is also actor marking).<o:p></o:p></div>
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<o:p> </o:p></div>
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Hope this helps.<o:p></o:p></div>
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<o:p> </o:p></div>
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Randy<o:p></o:p></div>
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<span class="xapple-style-span"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">-----</span></span><span class="xapple-style-span"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;"></span></span><span class="xapple-style-span"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
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<b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">Prof. Randy J. LaPolla, PhD FAHA</span></b><span class="xapple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'MS Gothic'; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">（</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: PMingLiU, serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">罗仁地</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'MS Gothic'; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">）</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">|
Head, Division of Linguistics and Multilingual Studies | Nanyang Technological University</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);"><br>
<span class="xapple-style-span"><span style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">HSS-03-80, 14 Nanyang Drive, Singapore 637332 | Tel: (65) 6592-1825 GMT+8h | Fax: (65) 6795-6525 |<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://sino-tibetan.net/rjlapolla/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://sino-tibetan.net/rjlapolla/</a></span></span></span><o:p></o:p></div>
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<o:p> </o:p></div>
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<o:p> </o:p></div>
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On 23 Aug, 2014, at 4:59 pm, Guillaume Jacques <<a href="mailto:rgyalrongskad@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">rgyalrongskad@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div>
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Dear Rachel,<o:p></o:p></div>
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<o:p> </o:p></div>
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In the Sino-Tibetan/Trans-Himalayan family, several languages that have been described with possessor raising might be cases of what you are looking for.<o:p></o:p></div>
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<o:p> </o:p></div>
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In the extinct Tangut language, the verb can agree with a SAP possessor marked with the genitive (Jacques 2014:224)<o:p></o:p></div>
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<o:p> </o:p></div>
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xjow²tɕʰjwo¹ dʑjɨwji¹ [nji¹ jij¹ gji²bjij²] dja²-sja¹-wji¹-nja²-sji¹<o:p></o:p></div>
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Fengchang ERG [you GEN wife] DIR-kill-AUX-2SG-PFV<o:p></o:p></div>
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Fenchang killed your wife.<o:p></o:p></div>
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<o:p> </o:p></div>
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Another case is Jingpo, which has a special set of agreement markers (Dai et al. 1990:382) for possessors, which can be used with both stative and dynamic verbs, and which are distinct from the regular set of agreement markers:<o:p></o:p></div>
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<o:p> </o:p></div>
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[nyéʔ pālọ̄ng] grài hprò lìʔāi<o:p></o:p></div>
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1SG:POSS clothes very be.white POSS:1SG:IPFV<o:p></o:p></div>
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My clothes are (very) white.<o:p></o:p></div>
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<o:p> </o:p></div>
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[shi ńnpyé] grài tsòm lùʔāi<o:p></o:p></div>
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3SG:POSS backsack very be.beautiful POSS:3SG:IPFV<o:p></o:p></div>
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His backsack is very beautiful.<o:p></o:p></div>
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<o:p> </o:p></div>
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The agreement markers above differ from those for 1SG and 3SG S argument, which are n̄ngāi and āi respectively. Here again, the possessors are marked with a possessive form, and are part of the NP.<o:p></o:p></div>
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<o:p> </o:p></div>
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Bickel (2000) also discusses related phenomena in Hakha Lai.<o:p></o:p></div>
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<o:p> </o:p></div>
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Best wishes,<o:p></o:p></div>
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<o:p> </o:p></div>
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Guillaume<o:p></o:p></div>
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<o:p> </o:p></div>
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References<o:p></o:p></div>
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Bickel, Balthasar (2000). On the syntax of agreement in Tibeto-Burman. Studies in Language, 24:583-609<o:p></o:p></div>
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<a href="http://www.zora.uzh.ch/76615/1/Bickel2000Syntax.pdf" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://www.zora.uzh.ch/76615/1/Bickel2000Syntax.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></div>
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Jacques, Guillaume 2014<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Esquisse de phonologie et de morphologie historique du tangoute</i>. Global Oriental. Leiden: Brill.<o:p></o:p></div>
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Dai, Qingxia and Xu Xijian 1990.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Jingpoyu yufa</i>. Beijing: Zhongyang minzuxueyuan chubanshe.<o:p></o:p></div>
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2014-08-22 7:53 GMT+02:00 Rachel Nordlinger <<a href="mailto:racheln@unimelb.edu.au" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">racheln@unimelb.edu.au</a>>:<o:p></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Dear LINGTYP-ers,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">I am looking for languages in which verbal and/or clause-level agreement morphology (or bound pronoun system) is able to cross-reference an<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>internal</b> NP
modifier. In other words, constructions where the agreement morphology is not cross-referencing the NP itself, but something<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>inside</b> the NP. External possession constructions may appear to be an instance of
this, but there is usually good evidence not to treat the possessor (which is cross-referenced) as an internal NP modifier in these cases, but rather to treat it as the argument of the verb itself (hence the traditional term ‘possessor raising’). So I am
not after examples like this. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">
<span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Rather, what I am looking for are examples in which the cross-referenced element can be clearly shown to still be internal to the NP, even though it is cross-referenced. Consider the following
example from Gurindji (Australia) (data courtesy of Dr. Felicity Meakins):<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<a name="x_147fe8cc28865f02__Ref252805349"></a><a name="x_147fe8cc28865f02__Ref252526292"></a><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">(1)</span><span style="font-size: 7pt;"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b><i><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">[Ngayiny</span></i></b><b><i><sub><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">b</span></sub></i></b><b><i><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">-ju
karu-ngku]<sub>a</sub></span></i></b><i><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> ngu=<b>yi<sub>b</sub>=lu<sub>a</sub></b> tawirrjip pa-ni marluka-wu kurrurij.</span></i><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> 1MIN.DAT-ERG child-ERG AUX=1MIN.O=3AUG.S pelt hit-PST</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> old.man-DAT
car</span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> My children pelted the old man's car (with rocks).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">In this example there are two cross-referencing bound pronouns: -lu which cross-references the (augmented number) subject ‘My children’, and –yi which cross-references the possessor internal
to the subject ‘my'. That the possessor remains a modifier within the subject NP is shown clearly by the fact that it carries dative case, and agrees with the head noun ‘child-ERG’ in ergative case as well. Thus, what we have here is a construction in which
an NP-internal modifier is cross-referenced with morphology otherwise reserved for clausal arguments.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> </span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">I am aware of an old paper by Stump and Yadav (1988) that discusses data from Maithili very similar to the Gurindji case shown above, and the brief discussion of ‘verb agreement with possessives’
in Corbett (2006: 61) which mentions a couple of languages including Jarawara and Tabasaran. However, I am keen to find more examples, if possible.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">If any of you are aware of other languages that do something like this, I would appreciate it if you could point me in the right direction. If there is sufficient interest, I will post a summary.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Rachel<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Corbett, Greville G. 2006.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Agreement</i>. Cambridge: CUP.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Stump, Gregory and Ramawatar Yadav. 1988. Maithili verb agreement and the control agreement principle. <i>Linguistics Faculty Publications</i>, Paper 37.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://uknowledge.uky.edu/lin_facpub/37" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://uknowledge.uky.edu/lin_facpub/37</a>.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">--<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Rachel Nordlinger<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Associate Professor and Reader<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">School of Languages and Linguistics<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">University of Melbourne<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">VIC 3010<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">AUSTRALIA<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><a href="tel:%2B61-%280%293-8344-4227" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">+61-(0)3-8344-4227</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><a href="http://languages-linguistics.unimelb.edu.au/academic-staff/rachel-nordlinger" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://languages-linguistics.unimelb.edu.au/academic-staff/rachel-nordlinger</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Guillaume Jacques<br>
CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO<br>
<a href="http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques</a><o:p></o:p></div>
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<a href="http://himalco.hypotheses.org/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://himalco.hypotheses.org/</a><o:p></o:p></div>
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<a href="http://panchr.hypotheses.org/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://panchr.hypotheses.org/</a><o:p></o:p></div>
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