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Hi Guillaume,
<div>Thanks for that, but I was not suggesting that all the languages you mentioned have hierarchical marking or that having hierarchical marking necessarily entails allowing marking as free as that of Rawang or Qiang; I was just saying that the fact that these
languages are hierarchical is key to understanding the way the marking works in those languages. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Randy<br>
<div apple-content-edited="true"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ">
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<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ">
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<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ">
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<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; ">-----</span></span>
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<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ">
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<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ">
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<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana; "><span style="font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; "><b>Prof.
Randy J. LaPolla, PhD FAHA</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(</span><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; font-size: 13px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Song">罗仁地</font></span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; ">)|
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<div>On 25 Aug, 2014, at 6:40 pm, Guillaume Jacques <<a href="mailto:rgyalrongskad@gmail.com">rgyalrongskad@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Dear Randy,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>While I certainly do not mean to dispute your analysis of the Qiang data, having a hierarchical system does not entail allowing marking of the person of a possessor on the verb in general (and vice-versa). Qiang and Rawang only represent a particular (or
rather two particular) subtype(s) of hierarchical agreement.</div>
<div>Many, if not most, languages with hierarchical person marking systems do not allow indexation of non-arguments on the verb (be it possessor of an argument, beneficiary etc). In the Sino-Tibetan family, in particular, Japhug (and other Rgyalrong languages),
while it presents a near-canonical direct-inverse (and thus hierarchical) agreement system, has a very strict syntactically-based person marking system (for instance, in the case of indirective ditransitive verbs the recipient cannot be marked on the verb
even if it is a SAP etc). </div>
<div>In fact, there is probably a gradient of possibilities intermediate between the Qiang type and the Japhug type, such as Khroskyabs (Lavrung), where we do find limited evidence of possessor raising for some specific verbs (see a forthcoming article by Lai
Yunfan in TPhS). <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In any case, Jingpo differs from Qiang in interesting ways. First, unless I misunderstand something (and correct me if I am wrong), in Qiang non-actor (including possessor) person marking is attested only on transitive verbs, while possessor agreement
is found on intransitive (inclduing stative) verbs in Jingpo. </div>
<div>Second, in the case of Jingpo we also have special marking for <i>third person</i> possessor, which would not be possible if person hierarchy were the only factor at play (since both possessor and possessed are third person). </div>
<div>It is unclear from the data in Dai 1990 whether in Jingpo any animacy/empathy hierarchy determines the use of 3rd person possessor agreement (for instance, whether we would still have possessor agreement in the case of an inanimate possessor, in a sentence
like 'its owner is not here'), but this is something that would be worth testing with native speakers. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Guillaume</div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">2014-08-23 13:57 GMT+02:00 Randy John LaPolla (Prof) <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:RandyLaPolla@ntu.edu.sg" target="_blank">RandyLaPolla@ntu.edu.sg</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">Hi Rachel,
<div>The key to the Tangut person marking, and many other Tibeto-Burman systems, like Rawang/Dulong and to some extent Qiang, is that the system is hierarchical or includes a hierarchical component. So the marking is not really of role, but of person. So, for
example, in Rawang/Dulong, first person is marked in a clause regardless of the role the referent has, as direct argument, possessor, or whatever. In Qiang there is a set of non-actor person markings that can even mark a person not involved in the clause as
an argument at all, as in example (453.a) in the attached page from my Qiang grammar (the second clause, where there is no second person argument, but as the second person will be affected by her leaving, it takes second person non-actor marking--I call it
"non-actor" marking because there is also actor marking).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hope this helps.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Randy<br>
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<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="border-collapse:separate;font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="border-collapse:separate;font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="border-collapse:separate;font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
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<div style="font-family: Verdana;"><span style="font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background-color:white"><b>Prof. Randy J. LaPolla, PhD FAHA</b><span> </span>(</span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);background-color:white;font-size:13px"><font face="Song">罗仁地</font></span><span style="font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background-color:white">)|
Head, Division of Linguistics and Multilingual Studies | Nanyang Technological University</span><span style="font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><br>
<span style="background-color:white">HSS-03-80, 14 Nanyang Drive, Singapore 637332</span></span></span><span style="font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="background-color:white"> | </span></span><span style="font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span style="background-color:white">Tel:
(65) 6592-1825 GMT+8h | Fax: (65) 6795-6525 | <a href="http://sino-tibetan.net/rjlapolla/" target="_blank">
http://sino-tibetan.net/rjlapolla/</a></span></span></span></div>
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<div>On 23 Aug, 2014, at 4:59 pm, Guillaume Jacques <<a href="mailto:rgyalrongskad@gmail.com" target="_blank">rgyalrongskad@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Dear Rachel,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In the Sino-Tibetan/Trans-Himalayan family, several languages that have been described with possessor raising might be cases of what you are looking for.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In the extinct Tangut language, the verb can agree with a SAP possessor marked with the genitive (Jacques 2014:224)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>xjow²tɕʰjwo¹ dʑjɨwji¹ [nji¹ jij¹ gji²bjij²] dja²-sja¹-wji¹-nja²-sji¹</div>
<div>Fengchang ERG [you GEN wife] DIR-kill-AUX-2SG-PFV</div>
<div>Fenchang killed your wife.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Another case is Jingpo, which has a special set of agreement markers (Dai et al. 1990:382) for possessors, which can be used with both stative and dynamic verbs, and which are distinct from the regular set of agreement markers:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>[nyéʔ pālọ̄ng] grài hprò lìʔāi</div>
<div>1SG:POSS clothes very be.white POSS:1SG:IPFV</div>
<div>My clothes are (very) white.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>[shi ńnpyé] grài tsòm lùʔāi</div>
<div>3SG:POSS backsack very be.beautiful POSS:3SG:IPFV</div>
<div>His backsack is very beautiful.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The agreement markers above differ from those for 1SG and 3SG S argument, which are n̄ngāi and āi respectively. Here again, the possessors are marked with a possessive form, and are part of the NP.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Bickel (2000) also discusses related phenomena in Hakha Lai.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best wishes,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Guillaume</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>References</div>
<div>Bickel, Balthasar (2000). On the syntax of agreement in Tibeto-Burman. Studies in Language, 24:583-609</div>
<div><a href="http://www.zora.uzh.ch/76615/1/Bickel2000Syntax.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.zora.uzh.ch/76615/1/Bickel2000Syntax.pdf</a><br>
</div>
<div>Jacques, Guillaume 2014 <i>Esquisse de phonologie et de morphologie historique du tangoute</i>. Global Oriental. Leiden: Brill.</div>
<div>Dai, Qingxia and Xu Xijian 1990. <i>Jingpoyu yufa</i>. Beijing: Zhongyang minzuxueyuan chubanshe.</div>
<div><br>
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<div><br>
<br>
<div>2014-08-22 7:53 GMT+02:00 Rachel Nordlinger <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:racheln@unimelb.edu.au" target="_blank">racheln@unimelb.edu.au</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Dear LINGTYP-ers,</div>
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I am looking for languages in which verbal and/or clause-level agreement morphology (or bound pronoun system) is able to cross-reference an
<span style="font-weight:bold">internal</span> NP modifier. In other words, constructions where the agreement morphology is not cross-referencing the NP itself, but something
<span style="font-weight:bold">inside</span> the NP. External possession constructions may appear to be an instance of this, but there is usually good evidence not to treat the possessor (which is cross-referenced) as an internal NP modifier in these cases,
but rather to treat it as the argument of the verb itself (hence the traditional term ‘possessor raising’). So I am not after examples like this. </div>
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Rather, what I am looking for are examples in which the cross-referenced element can be clearly shown to still be internal to the NP, even though it is cross-referenced. Consider the following example
from Gurindji (Australia) (data courtesy of Dr. Felicity Meakins):</div>
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<p><a name="14802e4119e0c5a2_x_147fe8cc28865f02__Ref252526292"></a><a name="14802e4119e0c5a2_x_147fe8cc28865f02__Ref252805349"><span lang="EN-US">(1)<span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">
</span></span><b><i><span lang="EN-US">[Ngayiny</span></i></b></a><b><i><sub>b</sub></i></b><b><i><span lang="EN-US">-ju karu-ngku]</span></i></b><b><i><sub>a</sub></i></b><i><span lang="EN-US"> ngu=<b>yi</b></span></i><b><i><sub>b</sub></i></b><b><i><span lang="EN-US">=lu</span></i></b><b><i><sub>a</sub></i></b><i><span lang="EN-US">
tawirrjip</span></i><i><span lang="EN-US"> </span></i><i><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></i><i><span lang="EN-US">pa-ni marluka-wu kurrurij.</span></i></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"> 1MIN.DAT-ERG child-ERG AUX=1MIN.O=3AUG.S pelt <u></u><u></u></span><span lang="EN-US">hit-PST</span><span lang="EN-GB"> old.man-DAT car</span></p>
<p><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span> My children pelted the old man's car (with rocks).</p>
</div>
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">In this example there are two cross-referencing bound pronouns: -lu which cross-references the (augmented number) subject ‘My children’, and –yi which cross-references the possessor internal to the
subject ‘my'. That the possessor remains a modifier within the subject NP is shown clearly by the fact that it carries dative case, and agrees with the head noun ‘child-ERG’ in ergative case as well. Thus, what we have here is a construction in which an
NP-internal modifier is cross-referenced with morphology otherwise reserved for clausal arguments.</div>
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I am aware of an old paper by Stump and Yadav (1988) that discusses data from Maithili very similar to the Gurindji case shown above, and the brief discussion of ‘verb agreement with possessives’ in
Corbett (2006: 61) which mentions a couple of languages including Jarawara and Tabasaran. However, I am keen to find more examples, if possible.</div>
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">If any of you are aware of other languages that do something like this, I would appreciate it if you could point me in the right direction. If there is sufficient interest, I will post a summary.</div>
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<p style="margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
</p>
</div>
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Thanks,</div>
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Rachel</div>
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p style="margin-left:36pt"><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Calibri" size="3">Corbett, Greville G. 2006.
<i>Agreement</i>. Cambridge: CUP.</font></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:36pt"><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Calibri" size="3">Stump, Gregory and Ramawatar Yadav. 1988. Maithili verb agreement and the control agreement principle. <i>Linguistics Faculty Publications</i>, Paper 37.
<a href="http://uknowledge.uky.edu/lin_facpub/37" target="_blank">http://uknowledge.uky.edu/lin_facpub/37</a>.<u></u><u></u></font></span></p>
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