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Marcel,<br>
<br>
The Hebrew verb "n-t-n" ('give') is grammaticalized (as in your
example) as a permissive, a path of grammaticalization that is quite
common cross-linguistically. But it doesn't mean 'do', or 'make'
(except to the extent that English "make" can be used as a
causative, which is somewhat akin to the permissive).<br>
<br>
Also, to the best of my (limited) knowledge of Russian, the
idiomatic use of "davaj" does not mean 'do' or 'make'.<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 18/02/2015 16:16, Marcel Erdal
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:F85E6634-D576-4A5E-858A-F3687C7558BA@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div>How about Modern Hebrew </div>
<div>Ten li liftor et ha-baaya</div>
<div> 'Let me solve the problem',</div>
<div>lit. ' Give <span class="Apple-style-span"
style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26,
0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227,
0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180,
0.230469); ">me to-solve ACC the-problem'</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span"
style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26,
0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227,
0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180,
0.230469);">and Russian davaj 'come on', lit. Give!'?</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span"
style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26,
0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227,
0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180,
0.230469);">Marcel</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span"
style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26,
0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227,
0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180,
0.230469); "><br>
</span></div>
<div>Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On 18.02.2015, at 05:11, David Gil <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gil@eva.mpg.de">gil@eva.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> Thanks to Suzanne Kemmer and Foong Ha Yap for pointing out
the 'give'-causative connection. Not exactly 'give'-'make'
identity, but since 'make' also often grammaticalizes as a
causative, the two words can often end up in "the same place",
as it were. In fact, this can even happen within the same
language, as in eastern dialects of Malay, where 'kasi'
("give") and 'bikin' ("do"/"make") are both used to form
periphrastic causatives — see for example the recent PhD
dissertation by Betty Littamahuputty on Ternate Malay.<br>
<br>
Thanks also to Ludwig Paul for providing the first robust case
of 'give'-'do'/'make' identity from a contemporary language
from outside the Mekong-Mamberamo (Southeast Asia to New
Guinea) region, namely East Iranian Pashto.<br>
<br>
Which brings me to a little puzzle, namely that a high
proportion of examples that have been offered so far for
'give'-'do'/'make' identity come from extinct literary
languages: Classical Chinese, Old and Middle Persian, and
Early Middle English — I wonder whether this is a coincidence.<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 17/02/2015 20:25, Suzanne
Kemmer wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:8D9989F2-402B-4A25-8425-AAE55CB9D4CC@rice.edu"
type="cite"> Words meaning ‘give’ can be a lexical source
for causative auxiliary or verb, e.g. Luo miyo (so that,
for example, I make it fall would be literally it I-give-it
it-fall )--Sorry I don’t have a real example to hand. I
believe cognates of miyo ‘give’ are also used as causative
verb in other Nilo-Saharan languages.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">This is not exactly what you’re looking for
because in Luo the word doesn’t mean ‘make’ in the sense
of 'create’. Analytic causatives are not often based on
words meaning ‘make’ ; English is kind of exceptional in
that regard. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Still I think the connection between ‘give’
and causative constructions is worth keeping in mind,
since conceptual connections attested in
grammaticalization paths can also be borrowed/spread
areally. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">References: the connection of ‘give’ with
causative constructions is mentioned in Kemmer and
Verhagen 1994, The grammar of causatives and the
conceptual structure of events (Cognitive Linguistics 5).</div>
<div class="">Also Heine and Kuteva 2002, World Lexicon of
Grammaticalization, list ‘give’ —> causative marker
as a recurrent grammaticalization path with examples from
(as I recall) Southeast Asia.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Suzanne</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Feb 17, 2015, at 10:58 PM, David
Gil <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gil@eva.mpg.de">gil@eva.mpg.de</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class="">
Dear all,<br class="">
<br class="">
Thanks to all of you who responded to my query
(reproduced below), either personally to me or
to the LINGTYP list.<br class="">
<br class="">
Many of the examples came, rather surprisingly
to me, from familiar languages, such as the
English "Do me a hamburger" (meaning "Give me a
hamburger") and "Give a sigh" (meaning "Make a
sigh") (the latter from a personal message from
John Haiman). <br class="">
<br class="">
While these examples suggest that the
'give'-'do'/'make' connection is indeed
cognitively "natural", they would appear to
differ from the cases I'm working on.
Specifically, whereas in English and other such
languages, the primary way of saying 'give' and
'do'/'make' is by means of different words that
would be listed as distinct lexical items in any
dictionary, in languages such as Roon, Meyah,
etc., there are no distinct words for 'give' and
'do'/'make' (at least not in the everyday
lexicon), hence dictionaries of these languages
would list 'give' and 'do'/'make' as primary
meanings for the same word.<br class="">
<br class="">
Thus, on the basis of the English-like usages, I
would now rephrase my query, and ask for
languages in which the same or related form has
both 'give' and 'do'/'make' as BASIC meanings,
of the kind that would be listed in a
dictionary. From the responses that I have
received so far, my impression (but please let
me know if I've misinterpreted anything) is that
the following languages fit the bill: Classical
Chinese (thanks to Randy LaPolla and Giorgio
Arcodia), the Angan ("Papuan") language Menya
(thanks to Carl Whitehead) and two
Timor-Alor-Pantar ("Papuan") languages, Makalero
and Makasae (thanks to Juliette Huber). But
more examples would be greatly appreciated!<br
class="">
<br class="">
In particular, I find the Chinese-Papuan
connection tantalizing, as I have just completed
a long paper arguing for a Mekong-Mamberamo
linguistic area extending from Southeast Asia to
Western New Guinea. But I would need much more
data in order to see if there is any connection
between 'give'-'do'/'make' identity and the
Mekong-Mamberamo area. (Of course, such a
connection would be a very weak one at best,
given the predominance of languages without
'give'-'do'/'make' identity even within the area
in question).<br class="">
<br class="">
Again, many thanks, and I look forward to more
data!<br class="">
<br class="">
David<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 16/02/2015
15:14, David Gil wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:54E18AC2.8080301@eva.mpg.de"
type="cite" class=""> Dear all,<br class="">
<br class="">
Does anybody know of languages in which 'give'
and 'do'/'make' are expressed with the same or
related words? Or of cases in which forms
expressing one of these two meanings are
historically derived from forms expressing the
other meaning? <br class="">
<br class="">
Thanks,<br class="">
<br class="">
David <br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Further details: <br class="">
<br class="">
My interest in this question stems from
current field work on Roon (South Halmahera
West New Guinea, Austronesian). In Roon there
is a single form <i class="">be</i>
expressing both 'give' and 'do'/'make'. (In
fact, the same form <i class="">be </i>is
associated with a wide range of grammatical
and semantic functions, most or all of which
seem to be derivable diachronically and
possibly also synchronically from either
'give' or 'do'/'make'.) A cognate form <i
class="">be </i>meaning both 'give' and
'do'/'make' is also present in closely related
Biak and Dusner.<br class="">
<br class="">
Identical words for 'give' and 'do'/'make'
(but unrelated to <i class="">be</i>) also
occur in at least two nearby non-Austronesian
languages, Meyah and Hatam, and in the
geographically proximate Austronesian language
Wooi. However, I have not yet been able to
find any other examples of 'give'-'do'/'make'
identity in other languages of the region,
Austronesian or otherwise. Thus,
'give'-'do'/'make' identity seems to be an
areal characteristic of a small region of the
eastern Bird's Head and western Cenderawasih
Bay, in which it presumably spread from the
original non-Austronesian to the intrusive
Austronesian languages, through metatypy,
relexification, or some such process.<br
class="">
<br class="">
In order to gauge the significance of
'give'-'do'/'make' identity as a diagnostic
feature of language contact, I am thus
interested in getting a feel for how
widespread this feature is across the world's
languages. For what it's worth, I can't think
of any examples from other parts of the world
— can you?<br class="">
<br class="">
I am also interested in any ideas you might
have about what the semantic basis of the
connection between 'give' and 'do'/'make', and
possible mechanisms of semantic
generalization. In the Roon/Biak/Dusner case,
at least, the form <i class="">be</i> is
clearly cognate with the
proto-Malayo-Polynesian word for 'give',
suggesting that the direction of semantic
spread was from 'give' to 'do'/'make'. But I
have no information on the other known cases
(Meyah, Hatam, Wooi).<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistics
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gil@eva.mpg.de">gil@eva.mpg.de</a>
Webpage: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.eva.mpg.de/%7Egil/">http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistics
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gil@eva.mpg.de">gil@eva.mpg.de</a>
Webpage: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.eva.mpg.de/%7Egil/">http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/</a>
</pre>
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<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistics
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gil@eva.mpg.de">gil@eva.mpg.de</a>
Webpage: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.eva.mpg.de/%7Egil/">http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/</a>
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<blockquote type="cite">
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistics
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@eva.mpg.de">gil@eva.mpg.de</a>
Webpage: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/">http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/</a>
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