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Thanks to Suzanne Kemmer and Foong Ha Yap for pointing out the
'give'-causative connection. Not exactly 'give'-'make' identity,
but since 'make' also often grammaticalizes as a causative, the two
words can often end up in "the same place", as it were. In fact,
this can even happen within the same language, as in eastern
dialects of Malay, where 'kasi' ("give") and 'bikin' ("do"/"make")
are both used to form periphrastic causatives — see for example the
recent PhD dissertation by Betty Littamahuputty on Ternate Malay.<br>
<br>
Thanks also to Ludwig Paul for providing the first robust case of
'give'-'do'/'make' identity from a contemporary language from
outside the Mekong-Mamberamo (Southeast Asia to New Guinea) region,
namely East Iranian Pashto.<br>
<br>
Which brings me to a little puzzle, namely that a high proportion of
examples that have been offered so far for 'give'-'do'/'make'
identity come from extinct literary languages: Classical Chinese,
Old and Middle Persian, and Early Middle English — I wonder whether
this is a coincidence.<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 17/02/2015 20:25, Suzanne Kemmer
wrote:<br>
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Words meaning ‘give’ can be a lexical source for causative
auxiliary or verb, e.g. Luo miyo (so that, for example, I make
it fall would be literally it I-give-it it-fall )--Sorry I don’t
have a real example to hand. I believe cognates of miyo ‘give’ are
also used as causative verb in other Nilo-Saharan languages.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">This is not exactly what you’re looking for because
in Luo the word doesn’t mean ‘make’ in the sense of 'create’.
Analytic causatives are not often based on words meaning ‘make’
; English is kind of exceptional in that regard. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Still I think the connection between ‘give’ and
causative constructions is worth keeping in mind, since
conceptual connections attested in grammaticalization paths can
also be borrowed/spread areally. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">References: the connection of ‘give’ with causative
constructions is mentioned in Kemmer and Verhagen 1994, The
grammar of causatives and the conceptual structure of events
(Cognitive Linguistics 5).</div>
<div class="">Also Heine and Kuteva 2002, World Lexicon of
Grammaticalization, list ‘give’ —> causative marker as a
recurrent grammaticalization path with examples from (as I
recall) Southeast Asia.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Suzanne</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
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<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
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<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Feb 17, 2015, at 10:58 PM, David Gil <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gil@eva.mpg.de"
class="">gil@eva.mpg.de</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""> Dear
all,<br class="">
<br class="">
Thanks to all of you who responded to my query
(reproduced below), either personally to me or to the
LINGTYP list.<br class="">
<br class="">
Many of the examples came, rather surprisingly to me,
from familiar languages, such as the English "Do me a
hamburger" (meaning "Give me a hamburger") and "Give a
sigh" (meaning "Make a sigh") (the latter from a
personal message from John Haiman). <br class="">
<br class="">
While these examples suggest that the
'give'-'do'/'make' connection is indeed cognitively
"natural", they would appear to differ from the cases
I'm working on. Specifically, whereas in English and
other such languages, the primary way of saying 'give'
and 'do'/'make' is by means of different words that
would be listed as distinct lexical items in any
dictionary, in languages such as Roon, Meyah, etc.,
there are no distinct words for 'give' and 'do'/'make'
(at least not in the everyday lexicon), hence
dictionaries of these languages would list 'give' and
'do'/'make' as primary meanings for the same word.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Thus, on the basis of the English-like usages, I would
now rephrase my query, and ask for languages in which
the same or related form has both 'give' and
'do'/'make' as BASIC meanings, of the kind that would
be listed in a dictionary. From the responses that I
have received so far, my impression (but please let me
know if I've misinterpreted anything) is that the
following languages fit the bill: Classical Chinese
(thanks to Randy LaPolla and Giorgio Arcodia), the
Angan ("Papuan") language Menya (thanks to Carl
Whitehead) and two Timor-Alor-Pantar ("Papuan")
languages, Makalero and Makasae (thanks to Juliette
Huber). But more examples would be greatly
appreciated!<br class="">
<br class="">
In particular, I find the Chinese-Papuan connection
tantalizing, as I have just completed a long paper
arguing for a Mekong-Mamberamo linguistic area
extending from Southeast Asia to Western New Guinea.
But I would need much more data in order to see if
there is any connection between 'give'-'do'/'make'
identity and the Mekong-Mamberamo area. (Of course,
such a connection would be a very weak one at best,
given the predominance of languages without
'give'-'do'/'make' identity even within the area in
question).<br class="">
<br class="">
Again, many thanks, and I look forward to more data!<br
class="">
<br class="">
David<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 16/02/2015 15:14,
David Gil wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:54E18AC2.8080301@eva.mpg.de"
type="cite" class="">
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Dear all,<br class="">
<br class="">
Does anybody know of languages in which 'give' and
'do'/'make' are expressed with the same or related
words? Or of cases in which forms expressing one of
these two meanings are historically derived from
forms expressing the other meaning? <br class="">
<br class="">
Thanks,<br class="">
<br class="">
David <br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Further details: <br class="">
<br class="">
My interest in this question stems from current
field work on Roon (South Halmahera West New Guinea,
Austronesian). In Roon there is a single form <i
class="">be</i> expressing both 'give' and
'do'/'make'. (In fact, the same form <i class="">be
</i>is associated with a wide range of grammatical
and semantic functions, most or all of which seem to
be derivable diachronically and possibly also
synchronically from either 'give' or 'do'/'make'.)
A cognate form <i class="">be </i>meaning both
'give' and 'do'/'make' is also present in closely
related Biak and Dusner.<br class="">
<br class="">
Identical words for 'give' and 'do'/'make' (but
unrelated to <i class="">be</i>) also occur in at
least two nearby non-Austronesian languages, Meyah
and Hatam, and in the geographically proximate
Austronesian language Wooi. However, I have not yet
been able to find any other examples of
'give'-'do'/'make' identity in other languages of
the region, Austronesian or otherwise. Thus,
'give'-'do'/'make' identity seems to be an areal
characteristic of a small region of the eastern
Bird's Head and western Cenderawasih Bay, in which
it presumably spread from the original
non-Austronesian to the intrusive Austronesian
languages, through metatypy, relexification, or some
such process.<br class="">
<br class="">
In order to gauge the significance of
'give'-'do'/'make' identity as a diagnostic feature
of language contact, I am thus interested in getting
a feel for how widespread this feature is across the
world's languages. For what it's worth, I can't
think of any examples from other parts of the world
— can you?<br class="">
<br class="">
I am also interested in any ideas you might have
about what the semantic basis of the connection
between 'give' and 'do'/'make', and possible
mechanisms of semantic generalization. In the
Roon/Biak/Dusner case, at least, the form <i
class="">be</i> is clearly cognate with the
proto-Malayo-Polynesian word for 'give', suggesting
that the direction of semantic spread was from
'give' to 'do'/'make'. But I have no information on
the other known cases (Meyah, Hatam, Wooi).<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistics
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@eva.mpg.de">gil@eva.mpg.de</a>
Webpage: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.eva.mpg.de/%7Egil/">http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistics
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@eva.mpg.de">gil@eva.mpg.de</a>
Webpage: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.eva.mpg.de/%7Egil/">http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/</a>
</pre>
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<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistics
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@eva.mpg.de">gil@eva.mpg.de</a>
Webpage: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/">http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/</a>
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