<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">dear Zach, dear Kilu,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Two general references about that sort of pronominal syncretism would be:</div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"></blockquote><span style="font-family:georgia,serif"><ul><li>Baerman, Matthew, Dunstan Brown, and Greville G. Corbett. <i><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;display:inline"></div>The syntax-morphology interface: A study of syncretism</i>. Vol. 109. Cambridge University Press, 2005.<br></li><li>Cysouw, Michael (2005). Syncretisms involving clusivity. In Elena Filimonova (ed.), <i>Clusivity: Typology and case studies of the inclusive–exclusive distinction, </i>73–111. New York: Benjamins.<br></li></ul></span><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">The pattern Kilu mentioned cannot be found in northern Vanuatu languages; but I came across it as I did fieldwork in the Solomons. Indeed, the 3 languages spoken on Vanikoro (Oceanic, Temotu) show a regular pattern in their subject-indexing prefixes (S/A):</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><ul><li><b>1exc:du </b>is collapsed with <b>2du</b>, and <b>1exc:pl </b>with <b>2pl</b><br></li><li><b>1inc:du </b>is collapsed with <b>3du</b>, and <b>1inc:pl</b> with <b>3pl</b></li></ul></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><font size="1">The facts themselves are briefly mentioned in a paper</font></div><div class="gmail_default" style><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_default" style><font face="georgia, serif" size="1">François, Alexandre. 2009. The languages of Vanikoro: Three lexicons and one grammar. In Bethwyn Evans (ed). <i>Discovering history through language: Papers in honour of Malcolm Ross</i>. Pacific Linguistics 605. Canberra: Australian National University. Pp.103-126.</font><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:x-small"> [</span><a href="https://www.academia.edu/848677/The_languages_of_Vanikoro_Three_lexicons_and_one_grammar" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:x-small">online</a><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:x-small">]</span></div></blockquote></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><font size="1"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><font size="1">As for the interpretation, it was the object of a conference presentation:</font></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_default" style><font face="georgia, serif" size="1">François, Alexandre. 2014. Person syncretism and impersonal reference in Vanikoro languages. Paper read at 6th ed. of <i>Syntax of the World's Languages</i> (SWL6), Universitá di Pavia, Sept 2014. [<a href="https://www.academia.edu/8349394/Person_syncretism_and_impersonal_reference_in_Vanikoro_languages">online</a>]</font></div></blockquote></blockquote><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">In that talk, I proposed two terms to label the language-specific categories defined by these mergers:</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><ul><li>"dislocutive" {1exc, 2}: a group in which Speaker and Addressee behave differently<br></li><li>"collocutive" {1inc, 3}: a group in which Speaker and Addressee behave identically</li></ul></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Considered separately, each of these two patterns of syncretism is also attested in a few other languages in the world; </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">but I haven't found any other language that combines the two syncretisms in such a neat and regular system as on Vanikoro.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">best,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Alex</div><div class="gmail_extra"><div><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">_________</div><span style="color:rgb(56,118,29)"><span><span style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="color:rgb(69,129,142)">Alex François<br>
<a href="http://lacito.vjf.cnrs.fr/membres/francois.htm" target="_blank">LACITO-CNRS</a>, France<br> <a href="https://researchers.anu.edu.au/researchers/francois-a" target="_blank">Australian National University</a>, Canberra<br>
<a href="http://alex.francois.free.fr" target="_blank">Personal homepage</a><br></span></font></span></span></span>__________________</div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;display:inline"></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;display:inline"></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;display:inline"></div>2015-06-23 <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;display:inline"></div>"Sandra Auderset" <<a href="mailto:sandrauderset@gmail.com">sandrauderset@gmail.com</a>><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;display:inline">:</div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%" align="center"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><td><table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="5" align="left">
<tbody><tr><td align="left"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>Dear Kilu,<br class=""></blockquote><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">This is also found elsewhere in the world, although in agreement forms and not in pronouns:<br>- in Banjal (Central Atlantic; Senegal):<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>1PL.EXCL = 2PL<i class=""> </i>(agreement with S/A)<br>- in Udihe (Tungusic, Russia): <span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>1PL.EXCL = 2PL (agreement with S/A)<br class=""></blockquote><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">However,
there is at least one language that collapses first person inclusive
with second person in agreement (might helpful for theoretical
considerations):<br>- Cubeo (Tucanoan; Colombia): <span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span> 1PL.INCL = 2 (agreement with S/A; concernces only one of several sets of forms)<br class=""><br class="">Best,<br>Sandra</blockquote>
<div class=""><div class=""><br></div></div></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"></div><br></div><div class="gmail_quote">2015-06-23 14:38 GMT+02:00 Bill Palmer <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bill.palmer@newcastle.edu.au" target="_blank">bill.palmer@newcastle.edu.au</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote " style="margin:0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;border-right-width:1px;border-right-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-right-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;padding-right:1ex"><div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span></p><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;display:inline"></div>Dear Kilu<u></u><u></u><p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I’m pretty sure I’ve seen this in a few Meso-Melanesian languages, though I can’t bring to mind off hand which ones. I’ll try to have a look and post again.
It’s hard to say why this happens, but I suspect that they are collapsing into a non-3<sup>rd</sup> person category. I suspect that 1incl is not involved because that category is a little more complex than simply a group of individuals including one or other
of the SAPs.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">best<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Bill<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> Lingtyp [mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Kilu von Prince<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 23 June 2015 10:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Zachary O'Hagan<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] uses of first plural exclusive pronouns<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Zach, and dear colleagues,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I'm not aware of the exact phenomenon you're looking for, but I'd like to piggyback on your question, because I have an observation that I find much weirder and have so far not been able to make any sense of:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">In Dalkalaen (Oceanic, spoken in Vanuatu), the first person exclusive pronouns for paucal and plural number are being collapsed with the corresponding second person pronouns. Are there other languages with this property? Does anyone have
a theory as to why this might happen?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Kilu<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Zachary O'Hagan <<a href="mailto:zohagan@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">zohagan@berkeley.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear colleagues,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It is known that first plural inclusive pronouns can be used for polite first- or second-person reference in some languages. I am searching for instances in any language in which a first plural *exclusive* pronoun can be used for polite
*third*-person reference, or for instances in which a third-person pronoun can be shown to originate historically in a first plural exclusive pronoun. Possible references are much appreciated.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-Zach O'Hagan<span style="color:rgb(136,136,136)"><br clear="all">
<span><u></u><u></u></span></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span style="color:rgb(136,136,136)">-- </span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="color:rgb(136,136,136)">Zachary O'Hagan<br>
Graduate Student<br>
Department of Linguistics<br>
University of California, Berkeley<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>