<div dir="ltr"><div>Very much agreed. We need to keep language-specific descriptive categories apart from comparative concepts, and not assume that comparative concepts need be "real" but rather need be well enough defined tools that are crucial to consistent systematic cross-linguistic comparison. If language-specific descriptivists uncritically adopt comparative concepts in their descriptions we run into having translation grammars from "typologese" and circular problems of only finding what we thought to look for.</div><div><br></div>/Hedvig</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>____________________________________<br>Sharing is caring, if you stumble across something you think I might find interesting then send it my way. I do the same.<br><br>Please forgive me for any mistakes of orthography (especially Swedish and French diacritics), I try to answer as fast as possible and sometimes that results in less than optimal key board output.<br></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">2015-07-07 1:14 GMT+10:00 Martin Haspelmath <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:haspelmath@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank">haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <div>I would say that both Grev Corbett and
      Dan Everett are right:<br>
      <br>
      Dan is right that similar categories across languages are often
      not "the same". The Tagalog ang-Nominal is similar to a Subject in
      English, but it's not the same, and the German Future tense is
      similar to the French Future tense, but they are not "the same".<br>
      <br>
      Grev is right that different terms can obscure the similarities,
      and since we want to understand the similarities, we should see
      beyond the accidents of local traditions.<br>
      <br>
      Dan has in mind the level of descriptive categories (which are
      different across languages), and Grev has the in mind level of
      comparative concepts (which are a prerequisite for
      cross-linguistic generalizations).<br>
      <br>
      An interesting question is whether comparative concepts can/should
      be "standardized" (perhaps so), and whether one should urge
      grammar writers to use these standard comparative terms for the
      language-specific counterparts. I'm less sure about the latter,
      because I wouldn't want to send the message that there are only as
      many possible categories as typologists have set up comparative
      concepts.<br>
      <br>
      Regards,<br>
      Martin<br>
      <br>
      P.S. And of course Bernhard Hurch is right as well: In a diverse
      world, different styles should be acceptable. But to be honest,
      globalized science is not a diverse world – it's supposed to be
      ruthlessly efficient, like globalized business. (In this way, and
      quite ironically, globalized language typology is part of the kind
      of process that is drastically reducing linguistic diversity.)<br>
      <br>
      On 06.07.15 08:29, Everett, Daniel wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      <div>Wrt the larger issue, Grev, about things being "the same" I
        am not so sanguine. Many people think there is a passive
        construction that is universal but I think that is mistaken. I
        am more concerned about over homogenization of
        typological/descriptive terms than LaTeX. But I am sure you are
        too. The problem is when people begin thinking that there are
        "same contructions" - this can become self-fulfilling. Not
        always perhaps. </div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Dan<br>
        <br>
        Sent from my iPhone</div>
      <div><br>
        On Jul 6, 2015, at 09:23, "<a href="mailto:g.corbett@surrey.ac.uk" target="_blank">g.corbett@surrey.ac.uk</a>"
        <<a href="mailto:g.corbett@surrey.ac.uk" target="_blank">g.corbett@surrey.ac.uk</a>>
        wrote:<br>
        <br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <div>I guess there is a small answer and a larger answer. 
          <div><br>
            <div>small: changing commas to full stops for
              journal A, and then back to commas for journal B isn’t a
              great use of people’s time. Better we diversify our
              thinking rather than our reference formatting. Share the
              tools but diversify the products.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>larger: we don’t always realise which things
              are the same and which are different, and that’s a waste
              too. For instance, there are Africanists who believe that
              ‘pluractionals' are special to the languages of Africa.
              But they are what others call ‘verbal number’ and you can
              find that all over.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>And then there’s the worst case scenario:</div>
            <div><a href="http://www.cse.lehigh.edu/%7Egtan/bug/localCopies/marsOrbiter" target="_blank">http://www.cse.lehigh.edu/~gtan/bug/localCopies/marsOrbiter</a></div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Very best, Grev</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div><br>
              <div>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div>On 6 Jul 2015, at 13:30, Hurch, Bernhard
                    (<a href="mailto:bernhard.hurch@uni-graz.at" target="_blank">bernhard.hurch@uni-graz.at</a>)
                    <<a href="mailto:bernhard.hurch@uni-graz.at" target="_blank">bernhard.hurch@uni-graz.at</a>>
                    wrote:</div>
                  <br>
                  <div>
                    <div style="word-wrap:break-word">
                      <div>Can anybody tell me why everything
                        must be standardized, unified, vereinheitlicht?</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>Can’t people live with
                        diversification / in a diversified world? </div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>Aren’t different styles the
                        (necessary) result of different traditions,
                        different discourse types and different views of
                        the world?</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>I seem not to know what modern
                        typology is about. Traditional typology
                        presumably wasn’t like that. </div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>Best wishes,</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>Bernhard</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <br>
                      <div>
                        <div>Am 06.07.2015 um 12:38 schrieb
                          Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:haspelmath@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank">haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>>:</div>
                        <br>
                        <blockquote type="cite">
                          <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                            <div>On 04.07.15
                              08:37, Kilu von Prince wrote:<br>
                            </div>
                            <blockquote type="cite">
                              <div dir="ltr">Dear all,
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>I agree that acceptance of
                                  articles in LaTeX format should be
                                  more widespread than it is at the
                                  moment. I may add that the style
                                  guides of many linguistics journals
                                  could be significantly improved if
                                  they incorporated more of the
                                  established best-practices in
                                  typesetting that are automatically
                                  implemented by default LaTeX styles.</div>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                            <br>
                            Moreover, it would be better if linguistics
                            journals agreed on a single style guide, see
                            <a href="http://www.frank-m-richter.de/freescienceblog/2015/03/18/how-to-make-linguistics-publication-more-efficient-use-discipline-wide-style-rules/" target="_blank">http://www.frank-m-richter.de/freescienceblog/2015/03/18/how-to-make-linguistics-publication-more-efficient-use-discipline-wide-style-rules/</a><br>
                            <br>
                            These issues should ideally be discussed by
                            a committee of linguistics editors, such as
                            the LSA's CeLxJ (<a href="http://celxj.org/" target="_blank">http://celxj.org/</a>).<br>
                            <br>
                            There will be a meeting of European
                            linguistics editors just before the next SLE
                            meeting in Leiden (see
                            <a href="http://sle2015.eu/programme" target="_blank">http://sle2015.eu/programme</a>,
                            "pre-conference mini-workshop"), which will
                            primarily discuss other issues, but where we
                            may decide to found such a committee of the
                            SLE.<br>
                            <br>
                            Regards,<br>
                            Martin<br>
                            <br>
                            <blockquote type="cite">
                              <div dir="ltr">
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>Also, to share a related
                                  anecdote,  it is sometimes in fact the
                                  editors rather than the publisher who
                                  insist on a submission in .doc format.
                                  I once submitted an articles to a
                                  Benjamins journal. When the editors
                                  requested a .doc version, I asked them
                                  to speak with their publisher if they
                                  couldn't work with a LaTeX or PDF
                                  file. Then I learned that it was the
                                  editors themselves who needed the .doc
                                  file for their workflow during the
                                  revisions process. I'd like to appeal
                                  to editors to have mercy on their
                                  LaTeX-using authors and try to develop
                                  a workflow that is compatible with
                                  PDFs. Converting LaTeX to .doc is
                                  time-consuming and depressing.</div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>Kind regards,</div>
                                <div>Kilu</div>
                              </div>
                              <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                                <div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jul 4,
                                  2015 at 1:35 PM, Guillaume Jacques <span dir="ltr">
                                    <<a href="mailto:rgyalrongskad@gmail.com" target="_blank">rgyalrongskad@gmail.com</a>></span>
                                  wrote:<br>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                    <div dir="ltr">Dear Don,
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>It is obvious to
                                        anyone who has learned LaTeX
                                        that word-processors like "word"
                                        or "open office" are completely
                                        inadapted to the typesetting of
                                        linguistics dissertations or
                                        articles. LaTeX is superior in
                                        particular for handling aligned
                                        glossed examples (package gb4e),
                                        complex figures (tikz),
                                        Stammbäume, cross-references,
                                        bibliography, complex scripts
                                        and of course math formulas. I
                                        actually now require from all my
                                        new MA and PhD students to write
                                        their dissertations in LaTeX (in
                                        general, three days are enough
                                        to master the most important
                                        commands).</div>
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>Fortunately, the
                                        number of linguistics journal
                                        and of publishers accepting
                                        LaTeX is now growing year after
                                        year. At the present moment,
                                        most if not all linguistics
                                        journals published by the
                                        following major publishers
                                        accept LaTeX submissions (only
                                        those I have personnally tested;
                                        the list is not exhaustive):<br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>Mouton de Gruyter</div>
                                      <div>Benjamins</div>
                                      <div>Brill</div>
                                      <div>Elsevier</div>
                                      <div>MIT Press</div>
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>I rarely have to
                                        convert my articles into word
                                        format anymore.<br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>Publishers that are
                                        still lagging behind with LaTeX
                                        include (we should collectively
                                        give them some pressure to catch
                                        up with the rest of the world):</div>
                                      <div>Cambridge University
                                        Press (for instance, Journal of
                                        the IPA)</div>
                                      <div>Chicago University
                                        Press (IJAL)</div>
                                      <div>(perhaps also Wiley)</div>
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>Some journasl do not
                                        use LaTeX files, but will
                                        convert them for you (from my
                                        personal experience,
                                        Anthropological Linguistics and
                                        Journal of Chinese Linguistics)</div>
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>If you submit to a
                                        collective volume for Mouton de
                                        Gruyter or Benjamins, they
                                        should be able to handle a LaTeX
                                        submission even if most of the
                                        volume is in word, but the
                                        editors of the volume may have
                                        to insist a little bit.</div>
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>Best wishes,</div>
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>Guillaume</div>
                                      <div class="gmail_extra">
                                        <div>
                                          <div><br>
                                            <div class="gmail_quote">2015-07-04
                                              11:22 GMT+02:00 Don
                                              Killian <span dir="ltr">
                                                <<a href="mailto:donald.killian@helsinki.fi" target="_blank">donald.killian@helsinki.fi</a>></span>:<br>
                                              <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                Dear all,<br>
                                                <br>
                                                After fighting with
                                                Microsoft Word for the
                                                past few weeks, I was
                                                wondering if there is
                                                any way we can find
                                                additional standards for
                                                article and chapter
                                                submission?<br>
                                                <br>
                                                It seems that a majority
                                                of editors still have a
                                                fairly strict
                                                requirement of Microsoft
                                                Word and Times New
                                                Roman, even if the
                                                publisher itself is more
                                                open to other formats.
                                                Times New Roman is more
                                                flexible, but I have not
                                                had very much luck with
                                                alternatives to Word
                                                (such as Open Office or
                                                pdfs made from LaTeX).<br>
                                                <br>
                                                This is a problem for
                                                more than one reason.
                                                The biggest problem I
                                                can see (in addition to
                                                the fact that both Word
                                                as well as Times New
                                                Roman are proprietary!)
                                                is that the
                                                technological
                                                requirements do not
                                                actually support the
                                                formatting requirements
                                                we suggest. Neither Word
                                                nor Times New Roman
                                                support the IPA in its
                                                entirety.<br>
                                                <br>
                                                While these problems do
                                                not affect all linguists
                                                (such as those who do
                                                not have certain sounds
                                                in their languages they
                                                work on), it definitely
                                                affects plenty of
                                                others.<br>
                                                <br>
                                                For instance, there is
                                                no way to change glyph
                                                selection in Word, and
                                                <a> changes to
                                                <ɑ> when
                                                italicized. It is
                                                relatively common to
                                                italicize words when you
                                                mix languages in text.
                                                But if you are
                                                discussing a language
                                                which has both a and ɑ,
                                                this is problematic.
                                                Furthermore, Word has no
                                                way of rendering the MH
                                                or HM tonal contours
                                                properly, in any font.
                                                Those symbols are only
                                                supported in Charis SIL
                                                and Doulos SIL fonts,
                                                and Word renders them
                                                incorrectly.<br>
                                                <br>
                                                There are plenty of
                                                other difficulties (e.g.
                                                making a vowel chart),
                                                so these are just some
                                                examples.<br>
                                                <br>
                                                I realize the main
                                                reason for using
                                                Word/TNR is simplicity
                                                and what people are used
                                                to, but I do find it
                                                problematic that our
                                                technology requirements
                                                do not support or make
                                                it easy to deal with
                                                common problems in our
                                                field.<br>
                                                <br>
                                                Is there any way to
                                                change this? LaTeX does
                                                support almost
                                                everything I have ever
                                                needed, but I admit it
                                                is not always very easy
                                                to learn or use. I would
                                                be happy to hear
                                                alternative views or
                                                suggestions.<br>
                                                <br>
                                                Best,<br>
                                                <br>
                                                Don<br>
                                                <br>
                                                <br>
                                                <br>
                                              </blockquote>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                            <br>
                          </div>
_______________________________________________<br>
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                        </blockquote>
                      </div>
                      <br>
                    </div>
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                  </div>
                </blockquote>
              </div>
              <br>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
          <span>Lingtyp mailing list</span><br>
          <span><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a></span><br>
          <span><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></span><br>
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      <br>
      <pre>_______________________________________________
Lingtyp mailing list
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
</pre>
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    <br>
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<br>_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br>
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