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Well, as Stephen pointed out, one of the main uses that many
linguists have for the Ethnologue is to find out the "three letter
codes" for particular languages, since SIL as registration authority
for ISO 639-3 is responsible for creating and maintaining this code
set. Furthermore, if linguists want to argue for changes to the ISO
639-3 code set, we need to interact with the Ethnologue and its
staff, who are ultimately responsible for these sorts of decisions.
The official ISO 639-3 code set must be purchased from the ISO in
Geneva, so up to now, Ethnologue has been the only free way of
accessing the current code set, so far as I am aware. <br>
<br>
As near as I can tell, this job - of figuring out how many distinct
languages there are in the world, assigning unique identifiers for
them (and even figuring out what the relationships among them are,
which is another job that SIL was supposed to do for ISO) - is being
done at least as well by Glottolog, and is arguably being done
better (because Glottolog's decisions seem to be based on the widest
possible reading of the scientific literature, whereas Ethnologue's
decisions seem to mostly privilege their own internal resources,
which are rarely cited or made publicly available).<br>
<br>
The problem is that since that since (a) the ISO maintains the
"official" list, and (b) the Ethnologue is the registration
authority for ISO 639-3, and (c) ISO 639-3 codes are increasingly
obligatory features of archival deposits and even some publications,
many linguists are currently forced to engage with this system. I
share several of the concerns that Dan Everett expressed earlier,
and agree that we do, as a field, need to have a conversation about
whether or not it is desirable to rely primarily or exclusively on
SIL for these sorts of services. Part of the argument that I've
often heard against moving away from SIL (for example, as ISO 639-3
registration authority) is that while its funding and permanence
seem to be relatively assured, the same can't be said of
organizations like Glottolog. So one question that I think that this
episode naturally raises is whether, as a field, our faith in SIL
has been too great. Note that in saying that, I don't imply that SIL
itself has done anything wrong. Ultimately, it's up to linguists
(who are on funding boards, who are on boards of archives, who are
on editorial boards, etc.) to decide whether we should be requiring
our colleagues to engage with SIL/Ethnologue in this way, or not.
Speaking for myself, I'd vote "not".<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
Mark<br>
<br>
PS - if anyone's interested in thinking about this further, there is
a handout from the 2013 PARADISEC conference that discusses some of
these issues <a
href="https://www.academia.edu/4725536/The_language_codes_of_ISO_639_A_premature_ultimately_unobtainable_and_possibly_damaging_standardization">here</a>,
and a related DLC conversation initiated by Martin H <a
href="http://dlc.hypotheses.org/610">here</a>. <br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 31/12/2015 12:57 PM, Hedvig Skirgård
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAHHFGT0COWwCa7ZvfhN5vfhomX9LXKzG=BjhCfbDHuwZF5oPtg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Hi, </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The main use I have of Ethnologue is for looking up
population stats, which I can also do elsewhere but it's more
cumbersome.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Many of the other functions I get elsewhere.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Endangerment level - UNESCO's Atlas</div>
<div>Codes and classification - Glottolog</div>
<div>Genealogies - Glottolog or MultiTree</div>
<div>Alternative names - Glottolog</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Then there's some summaries and calculations like Greenberg
Diversity Index, indigenous vs immigrant languages, the
"statistics" pages and some more functions that Glottolog
could do maybe sometime in future, but doesn't right now.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What are the main uses for the linguists in this mailing
list for Ethnologue?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best, </div>
Hedvig</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:9pt"><b>Hedvig Skirgård</b><br>
PhD Candidate<br>
<span style="color:rgb(196,89,17)">The Wellsprings
of Linguistic Diversity</span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:9pt">ARC Centre of Excellence for
the Dynamics of Language</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:9pt">School of Culture, History
and Language<br>
College of Asia and the Pacific</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:9pt">Rm 4203, H.C. Coombs
Building (#9)<br>
The Australian National University</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:9pt">Acton ACT 2601</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:9pt">Australia<br>
<br>
Ph: +61 (0)451 878 060</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:9pt">E: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:hedvig.skirgard@anu.edu.au"
target="_blank">hedvig.skirgard@anu.edu.au</a></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 31 December 2015 at 12:49, Everett,
Daniel <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:DEVERETT@bentley.edu" target="_blank">DEVERETT@bentley.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
The issue is not whether SIL will discontinue the service.
It is whether the support will be sufficient to meet the
expectations of the academic community.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On the one hand, I am concerned that SIL has taken so
long to make any public statement about this. But on the
other, the more fundamental question is whether it is
appropriate for data bases of this type to be kept and
controlled exclusively by a missionary organization.
That is not a problem for SIL. It can build any data
base it wants. That is a problem for the academic
community.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As was discussed at an LSA meeting several years ago,
via a panel organized by Lise Dobrin (and which I
participated in with several others), a concern that was
expressed had to do with the fact that as the academic
community allows SIL to take on a quasi-official
capacity in certain areas, e.g. the Ethnologue, SIL
thereby is able to further the myth that it is an
academic organization, when in reality (as I know having
been a member of SIL from 1976-2002) it is a missionary
organization, its members dedicated to the establishment
of churches among indigenous communities around the
world. The church support for the Ethnologue is not for
the furtherance of scientific research but to have a
more accurate assessment of Bible translation needs of
the world’s languages. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That might be fine for some, but I think it is time
that the academic community think about funding for a
parallel project. Otherwise, no one should be concerned
about paying the fee. This is the only way SIL seems to
be able to support the project and if interested
academics are willing to cede that responsibility to
SIL, then they ought not to complain or worry about
fees.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In any case, I don’t use Ethnologue much anymore so
am indifferent to the outcome. I simply believe that it
is worth discussing the general situation, perhaps at a
LingTyp meeting, and LSA, etc.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Dan </div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Dec 30, 2015, at 8:24 PM, Les Bruce <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:les_bruce@sil.org"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:les_bruce@sil.org">les_bruce@sil.org</a></a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif">
I don’t think we need fear that Ethnologue
will be discontinued by SIL. People like
Joe and Barbara Grimes who pioneered this
work have been strongly supported by their
constituency who have appreciated the
academic work of these people. <span> </span></div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif">
</div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif">
Les Bruce</div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif">
<span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></div>
<div>
<div style="border-style:solid none
none;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt
0in 0in">
<div style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif">
<b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><span> </span>Lingtyp
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]<span> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span> </span></b>Everett,
Daniel<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Wednesday,
December 30, 2015 3:41 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span> </span>Martin
Haspelmath<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re:
[Lingtyp] Ethnologue goes for paid
access</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif">
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif">
It is not at all clear that SIL is
trying to make money. Maintaining these
pages costs thousands of dollars per
month and, as Martin says, SIL has no
academic funding. Its funding comes from
churches by and large and they have no
particular interest in supporting
non-mission related academics. I
strongly urge the academic community to
develop its own resources in this area. </div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif">
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif">
DLE<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif">
<br>
On Dec 30, 2015, at 16:28, Martin
Haspelmath <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"
type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in
0in
12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif">
Yes, that's true, and here's the
description:<span> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ethnologue.com/ethnoblog/m-paul-lewis/ethnologue-launches-subscription-service"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ethnologue.com/ethnoblog/m-paul-lewis/ethnologue-launches-subscription-service">http://www.ethnologue.com/ethnoblog/m-paul-lewis/ethnologue-launches-subscription-service</a></a><br>
<br>
They say you can access seven data
pages per month for free.<br>
<br>
I don't find this surprising.
Ethnologue (and the entire academic
branch of SIL) has no proper academic
funding, so it's normal that they are
trying to make some money out of their
flagship publication.<br>
<br>
Incidentally, Glottolog has no proper
funding either, but as it is now
hosted by MPI-SHH in Jena (<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.shh.mpg.de/48816/research_outline"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.shh.mpg.de/48816/research_outline">http://www.shh.mpg.de/48816/research_outline</a></a>),
at least its continued existence is
assured for the next dozen years or
so.<br>
<br>
(I think we should try to tell our
administrators that it makes little
sense to try to sell academic
publications. Instead, they should by
properly funded by the academic
publishers themselves, in order not to
drive academics even further into<span> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.frank-m-richter.de/freescienceblog/2015/12/18/is-our-scholarship-based-on-illegal-foundations/"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">questionable
practices</a>.)<br>
<br>
Martin</p>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif">
On 30.12.15 22:16, Peter Arkadiev
wrote:</div>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"
type="cite">
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">Dear all,</pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'"> </pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">does any one know whether the access to the Ethnologue is going to be by paid subscription only? When trying to routinely access the information about a random language, I got a screen advertising paid subscription for $60 per year, and there is no way to bypass it and get access to the information which was freely available a week ago. This looks pretty distressing. </pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'"> </pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">Best,</pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'"> </pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">Peter</pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'"> </pre>
</blockquote>
<div style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif">
<br>
<br>
</div>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">-- </pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">Martin Haspelmath (<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)</pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History</pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">Kahlaische Strasse 10 </pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">D-07745 Jena </pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">&</pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">Leipzig University</pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">Beethovenstrasse 15</pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">D-04107 Leipzig </pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'"> </pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'"> </pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'"> </pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'"> </pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'"> </pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"
type="cite">
<div>
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New Roman',serif">
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