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    Jan Rijkhoff and Randy LaPolla are completely right that word order
    studies have sometimes been based on formally defined comparative
    concepts. This has long been recognized (but perhaps not emphasized
    sufficiently), e.g. in Dryer's (2005) WALS chapter on relative
    clauses, he defines a relative clause as follows: "
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    A construction is considered a relative clause for the purposes of
    this map if it is a clause which, either alone or in combination
    with a noun, denotes something and if the thing denoted has a
    semantic role within the relative clause"
    (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://wals.info/chapter/90">http://wals.info/chapter/90</a>). Thus, relative clauses must be
    clauses, i.e. simple adnominal adjectives do not count. <br>
    <br>
    (This is in contrast with Comrie's (1981) definition of relative
    clause, which is purely semantic and thus (counterintuitively)
    includes adnominal adjectives. This worked for Comrie's purposes,
    because he was not interested in the ordering possibilities of
    relative clauses, and for the generalizations that he considered,
    the inclusion of adnominal adjectives did not make a difference.)<br>
    <br>
    By contrast, Dryer indeed includes relative clauses in his chapter
    on the order of adjective and noun. For example, he says about
    Ojibwa, which lacks a dedicated class of adjectives: "Because words
    expressing adjectival meaning are really verbs iin Ojibwa, instances
    in which such words modify nouns, like (6a), are, strictly speaking,
    relative clauses" (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://wals.info/chapter/87">http://wals.info/chapter/87</a>).<br>
    <br>
    Here it might have been better to use the term "property word"
    rather than "adjective", but in practice, it is often very hard to
    say whether a language has a "dedicated" class of adjectives (Dixon
    2004 even claims that all languages have one, even if the
    distributional differences may be very small). Thus, it is not the
    terms that count, but the definitions, and these are generally very
    clear in Dryer's WALS chapters.<br>
    <br>
    When Dryer says that adjectives are non-branching elements, as
    opposed to relative clauses which are branching elements, he
    evidently means the most frequent types of adnominal property words
    and adnominal clauses. Adjective phrases can be long ("very proud of
    his achievements"), and relative clauses can be short ("who left"),
    but it is clear that overall, relative clauses (a formally defined
    concept) tend to be longer than property-word modifiers (a
    semantically defined concept).<br>
    <br>
    In general, I find it important to recognize that typology works
    with a heterogeneous class of comparative concepts, which may be
    defined in a variety of ways (formally, functionally, with respect
    to discourse, with respect to translation equivalence, etc.).
    Typology does not (necessarily) work in terms of the descriptive
    categories that are the most useful in analyzing languages, and it
    need not define its concepts in a uniform way.<br>
    <br>
    Best wishes,<br>
    Martin<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 18.01.16 13:41, Jan Rijkhoff wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:EBCB141063E9C040A28A5B906370F04851453991@SRVUNIMBX05.uni.au.dk"
      type="cite">
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        <p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops:65.2pt">I think the last
          word has not been said about Greenbergian word order
          correlations, mainly because semantic categories and formal
          categories have not always been clearly distinguished in
          post-Greenberg (1963) word order studies (Rijkhoff 2009a).*
          For example, both Hawkins (1983: 12) and Dryer (1992: 120)
          claimed that they followed Greenberg (1963: 74) in ‘basically
          applying semantic criteria’ to identify members of the same
          category across languages, but in practice these semantically
          defined forms and constructions are treated as formal
          entities.
        </p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops:65.2pt"> </p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops:65.2pt">If Hawkins and
          Dryer applied semantic criteria in their cross-linguistic
          studies, this implies, for example, that their semantic
          category Adjective must also have included verbal and nominal
          expressions of adjectival notions (such as relative clauses
          and genitives), which are typically used in languages that
          lack a dedicated class of adjectives:</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops:65.2pt"> </p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="tab-stops:65.2pt;mso-layout-grid-align:none;
          text-autospace:none">
          <u><span style="mso-no-proof:yes">Kiribati </span></u><span
            style="mso-no-proof:yes">(Ross 1998: 90)</span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="tab-stops:65.2pt;mso-layout-grid-align:none;
          text-autospace:none">
          <span style="mso-no-proof:yes">(1)<i> </i><i
              style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">te<span
                style="mso-tab-count:2">     
              </span>uee<span style="mso-tab-count:2">      </span>ae<span
                style="mso-tab-count:2">   
              </span>e<span style="mso-tab-count:2">          </span>tikiraoi</i><span
              style="mso-tab-count:4">        
            </span>(relative clause)</span><span
            style="mso-bidi-font-family:"American Typewriter";
            mso-no-proof:yes"></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="tab-stops:65.2pt;mso-layout-grid-align:none;
          text-autospace:none">
          <span style="mso-bidi-font-family:"American
            Typewriter";
            font-variant:small-caps;mso-no-proof:yes"><span
              style="mso-tab-count:2">    
            </span>art<span style="mso-tab-count:1">  </span></span><span
            style="mso-bidi-font-family:
            "American Typewriter";mso-no-proof:yes">flower 
            <span style="font-variant:small-caps">rel  </span>3<span
              style="font-variant:small-caps">sg.s  
              <span style="mso-tab-count:2"></span></span>be.pretty<span
              style="mso-tab-count:1">      
            </span></span><span style="mso-no-proof:yes"></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="tab-stops:65.2pt;mso-layout-grid-align:none;
          text-autospace:none">
          <span style="mso-no-proof:yes"><span style="mso-tab-count:
              2">     </span>‘a pretty flower’ (lit. ‘a flower that
            pretties’)<span style="mso-tab-count:1">             
            </span></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="tab-stops:65.2pt;mso-layout-grid-align:none;
          text-autospace:none">
          <span style="mso-no-proof:yes"> </span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops:65.2pt"><u><span
              style="mso-no-proof:yes">Makwe</span></u><span
            style="mso-no-proof:yes"> (Devos 2008: 136)</span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops:65.2pt"><span
            style="mso-no-proof:yes">(2)<span style="mso-tab-count:1"></span><i
              style="mso-bidi-font-style:
              normal">   muú-nu<span style="mso-tab-count:3">     
              </span>w-á=ki-búúli</i><span style="mso-tab-count:6">                
            </span>(genitive)</span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops:65.2pt"><span
            style="mso-no-proof:yes"><span style="mso-tab-count:2">    
            </span><span style="font-variant:small-caps">nc1</span>-person 
            <span style="font-variant:small-caps">
              pp1-gen=nc7</span>-silence</span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops:65.2pt"><span
            style="mso-no-proof:yes">    ‘a silent person’ (lit. ‘person
            of silence’)</span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops:65.2pt"> </p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops:65.2pt">Relative Clause
          and Genitive are, however, also semantic categories in their
          own right in word order studies by Dryer and Hawkins.</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops:65.2pt"> </p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops:65.2pt">When these authors
          subsequently formulate rules and principles on the basis of
          the data they collected, the semantic category labels
          (Adjective, Genitive, Relative Clause, but also e.g.
          Demonstrative and Numeral) appear to stand for <u>formal</u>
          categories, i.e. categories whose members are defined on the
          basis of structural or morphosyntactic criteria. This apparent
          change of category is not explained, but can be seen in the
          case of the ‘Heaviness Serialization Principle’ (Hawkins 1983:
          90-91) and the ‘Branching Direction Theory’ (Dryer 1992).</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops:65.2pt"> </p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-right:13.75pt;tab-stops:65.2pt;mso-layout-grid-align:
          none;text-autospace:none">
          Hawkins defined ‘heaviness’ in terms of such non-semantic
          criteria as (a) length and quantity of morphemes, (b) quantity
          of words, (c) syntactic depth of branching nodes, and (d)
          inclusion of dominated constituents.
        </p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-right:13.75pt;tab-stops:65.2pt;mso-layout-grid-align:
          none;text-autospace:none">
           </p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
          mso-pagination:widow-orphan
          lines-together;page-break-after:avoid;tab-stops:
          65.2pt;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none">
          <span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">(3)<span
              style="mso-tab-count:2"><i>  
              </i></span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Heaviness
              Serialization Principle</i></span><span
            style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><span
              style="mso-tab-count:2">:
            </span>Rel<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">  </span>≥<sub>R</sub><span
              style="mso-spacerun:yes"> 
            </span>Gen<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">  </span>≥<sub>R</sub><span
              style="mso-spacerun:yes"> 
            </span>A<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">  </span>≥<sub>R </sub><span
              style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>Dem/Num</span>
        </p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-right:13.75pt;tab-stops:65.2pt;mso-layout-grid-align:
          none;text-autospace:none">
           </p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-right:13.75pt;tab-stops:65.2pt;mso-layout-grid-align:
          none;text-autospace:none">
          Thus a member of the (semantic? formal?) category Relative
          Clause is ‘heavier’ than a member of the (semantic? formal?)
          category Adjective. But Hawkins’s semantic category Adjective
          must also have included members of the ‘heavy’ formal
          categories Genitive and Relative Clause (see (1) and (2)
          above). It is not clear whether the original members of the
          single semantic category Adjective were later ‘re-categorized’
          and distributed over the formal categories Adjective, Genitive
          and Relative Clause in the
          <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:
            normal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">Heaviness
              Serialization Principle</span></i>.</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-right:13.75pt;tab-stops:65.2pt;mso-layout-grid-align:
          none;text-autospace:none">
           </p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops:65.2pt">Dryer’s ‘Branching
          Direction Theory’ refers to a structural feature of the
          internal syntactic organization of a constituent. According to
          the ‘Branching Direction Theory’, relative clauses and
          genitives are phrases, i.e. members of a branching category,
          whose position relative to the noun correlates with the
          relative order of Verb and Object, whereas adjectives are
          non-branching elements, whose position relative to the noun
          does not correlate with OV or VO order (Dryer 1992: 107-8,
          110-1). In this case, too, one may assume that the semantic
          category Adjective also included members of the formal
          categories Genitive and Relative Clause (see examples above).
          Again we do not know what happened to the branching/phrasal
          members of the erstwhile(?) semantic category Adjective
          (relative clauses, genitives) when this category was turned
          into the formal (non-branching) category Adjective that is
          part of the ‘Branching Direction Theory’.</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops:65.2pt"> </p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops:65.2pt">So as to avoid
          categorial confusion in cross-linguistic research (and so as
          to make it possible to produce more reliable results), it is
          necessary to keep formal and semantic categories apart, as
          members of these two categories have their own ordering rules
          or preferences. I also think it is an illusion to think we can
          give a satisfactory account of the grammatical behaviour of
          linguistic units -including word order- without taking into
          consideration functional (interpersonal) categories or
          ‘discourse units’ (Rijkhoff 2009b, 2015). </p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops:65.2pt"> </p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops:65.2pt">* Greenberg (1963:
          88) made it clear that he sometimes used formal criteria to
          remove certain members of a semantic category before he
          formulated a universal, as in the case of his Universal 22.</p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops:65.2pt"> </p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops:65.2pt"><font size="2"><b
              style="mso-bidi-font-weight:
              normal">References</b></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops:65.2pt"><font size="2"><span
              style="mso-no-proof:yes">Devos, M. 2008.
              <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">A Grammar of Makwe</i>.
              München: Lincom Europa.</span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops:65.2pt"><font size="2"><span
              style="mso-fareast-language:
              JA">Dryer, M. S., 1992. The Greenbergian word order
              correlations.
              <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Language</i> 68-1,
              81-138.</span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-left:14.2pt;text-indent:-14.2pt"><font size="2"><span
              style="mso-fareast-language:JA">Greenberg, J. H. 1963.
              Some universals of grammar with particular reference to
              the order of meaningful elements. In J. H. Greenberg
              (ed.),
              <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Universals of
                Language</i>, 73-113. Cambridge MA: MIT.</span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-left:14.2pt;text-indent:-14.2pt;tab-stops:
          65.2pt">
          <font size="2"><span style="mso-fareast-language:JA">Hawkins,
              J. A., 1983. <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">
                Word Order Universals: Quantitative analyses of
                linguistic structure</i>. New York: Academic Press.</span></font></p>
        <p
          style="margin-left:14.2pt;text-indent:-14.2pt;mso-pagination:none;
          tab-stops:65.2pt">
          <font size="2"><span
              style="mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
              New Roman";
              mso-bidi-font-family:AdvP497E2;mso-bidi-language:EN-US">Rijkhoff,
              J. 2009a.
            </span><span
              style="mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
              New Roman"">On the (un)suitability of semantic
              categories.
              <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Linguistic Typology</i>
              13-1, 95‑104.</span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-left:14.2pt;text-indent:-14.2pt;mso-pagination:
none;tab-stops:65.2pt;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none">
          <font size="2"><span
style="mso-bidi-font-size:8.0pt;mso-bidi-font-family:AdvP497E2;mso-bidi-language:EN-US">Rijkhoff,
              Jan. 2009b.
            </span>On the co-variation between form and function of
            adnominal possessive modifiers in Dutch and English.
            <span style="mso-bidi-font-size:8.0pt">In William B.
              McGregor (ed.), <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">
                The Expression of Possession</i> (</span>The Expression
            of Cognitive Categories [ECC] 2),<span
              style="mso-bidi-font-size:
              8.0pt"> 51‑106. Berlin and New York: Mouton de Gruyter.</span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-left:14.2pt;text-indent:-14.2pt;mso-pagination:
none;tab-stops:65.2pt;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none">
          <font size="2"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:⁄ê∏Ôˇølæ—">Rijkhoff,
              J. 2015. Word order. In James D. Wright (editor-in-chief),
              <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">International
                Encyclopedia of the Social & Behavioral Sciences
                (Second Edition)</i>, Vol. 25, 644–656. Oxford:
              Elsevier.</span><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
              color:black"></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-left:14.2pt;text-indent:-14.2pt;tab-stops:
          65.2pt">
          <font size="2"><span class="p-match">Ross, M. 1998.
              Proto-Oceanic adjectival categories and their
              morphosyntax.
              <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Oceanic Linguistics</i>
              37-1, 85-119.</span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-left:14.2pt;text-indent:-14.2pt;tab-stops:
          65.2pt">
          <span class="p-match"> </span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="margin-left:14.2pt;text-indent:-14.2pt;tab-stops:
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          <span class="p-match">Jan Rijkhoff</span></p>
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          <hr tabindex="-1">
          <div style="direction: ltr;" id="divRpF867311"><font
              color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b>
              Lingtyp [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>] on
              behalf of Alan Rumsey [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Alan.Rumsey@anu.edu.au">Alan.Rumsey@anu.edu.au</a>]<br>
              <b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 18, 2016 12:23 PM<br>
              <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
              <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Structural congruence as a
              dimension of language complexity/simplicity<br>
            </font><br>
          </div>
          <div><span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">
              <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">Many thanks to all of you who
                responded to my posting on this topic, both online and
                off. All the readings you have pointed me to have indeed
                been highly relevant and very useful, including an
                excellent recent publication by Jennifer Culbertson that
                she pointed me to in her offline response, at <a
                  moz-do-not-send="true"
href="redir.aspx?REF=sGl5RomnpE-BF3Bt1foWHNs4EZ9sLFpNokQs5Y0pxDO6ZjPcAyDTCAFodHRwOi8vam91cm5hbC5mcm9udGllcnNpbi5vcmcvYXJ0aWNsZS8xMC4zMzg5L2Zwc3lnLjIwMTUuMDE5NjQvYWJzdHJhY3Q."
                  target="_blank">http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.01964/abstract</a></div>
            </span>
            <div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
            </div>
            <div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">Thanks especially to Matthew
              Dryer for pointing out that the Greenbergian ‘universal’ I
              had used as an example – the putative association between
              VSO and noun-adjective order — had been falsified by his
              much more thorough 1992 study <span
                style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">“The
                Greenbergian Word Order Correlations”.  My reading of
                that article and further correspondence with him has
                confirmed that, by contrast, Greenberg’s universals no 3
                and 4 were solidly confirmed by his study, namely that
                SOV </span>languages are far more likely to have
              postpositions than prepositions and that the reverse is
              true for VSO  languages. </div>
            <div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
            </div>
            <div>Drawing on all your suggestions, Francesca and I have
              now finished a draft of the paper referred to in my
              posting, called '<span style="text-align:center"><span
                  lang="EN-US">Structural Congruence as a Dimension of
                  Language Complexity: </span></span><span lang="EN-US">An

                Example from Ku Waru Child Language’.<b> </b></span>If
              any of you would like to read it please let me know
              and I’ll send it to you.</div>
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            <div>Alan</div>
          </div>
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      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Martin Haspelmath (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10   
D-07745 Jena  
&
Leipzig University
Beethovenstrasse 15
D-04107 Leipzig    





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