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Dryer's definition of a relative clause, cited by Martin, doesn't make clear if constructions with "nominalized" or "participial" (in Stassen's [1985] terms, deranked) predicate forms would be included, because "clause" is not defined in the chapter. This is
the reason for Keenan and Comrie's (1977) semantic definition. The counterintuitive inclusion of "adnominal adjectives" can be taken care of by limiting the predicate head of the modifying proposition to action concepts.
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<div>I wouldn't underestimate the ability to come up with purely functional definitions for comparative concepts that capture the intuitions behind many typological universals including many word order universals. This is not to deny the value of comparative
concepts that include formal properties. But I would argue (and have; Croft 2014) that we must be careful to define comparative concepts in consistent and crosslinguistically valid ways, that is, using formal properties that are crosslinguistically valid and
consistently applied across languages.</div>
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<div>Best wishes,</div>
<div>Bill Croft</div>
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</div>
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<div><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 12pt;">Croft, William. Comparing categories and constructions crosslinguistically (again): the diversity of ditransitives”</span><b style="font-family: Times; font-size: 12pt;"> </b><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 12pt;">[Review
article on </span><i style="font-family: Times; font-size: 12pt;">Studies in ditransitive constructions: a comparative handbook</i><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 12pt;">, ed. Andrej Malchukov, Martin Haspelmath and Bernard Comrie].
</span><i style="font-family: Times; font-size: 12pt;">Linguistic Typology </i><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: 12pt;">18.533-51.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Times;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:
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<div><span style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;
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Helvetica;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:
AR-SA">Keenan, Edward L. & Bernard
Comrie. 1977. Noun phrase accessibility and universal grammar. <i>Linguistic Inquiry
</i>8:63–99.</span><!--EndFragment--> </div>
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<div>On Jan 18, 2016, at 1:20 PM, Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" style="direction: ltr; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">
Jan Rijkhoff and Randy LaPolla are completely right that word order studies have sometimes been based on formally defined comparative concepts. This has long been recognized (but perhaps not emphasized sufficiently), e.g. in Dryer's (2005) WALS chapter on relative
clauses, he defines a relative clause as follows: " A construction is considered a relative clause for the purposes of this map if it is a clause which, either alone or in combination with a noun, denotes something and if the thing denoted has a semantic role
within the relative clause" (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://wals.info/chapter/90">http://wals.info/chapter/90</a>). Thus, relative clauses must be clauses, i.e. simple adnominal adjectives do not count.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<br>
(This is in contrast with Comrie's (1981) definition of relative clause, which is purely semantic and thus (counterintuitively) includes adnominal adjectives. This worked for Comrie's purposes, because he was not interested in the ordering possibilities of
relative clauses, and for the generalizations that he considered, the inclusion of adnominal adjectives did not make a difference.)<br>
<br>
By contrast, Dryer indeed includes relative clauses in his chapter on the order of adjective and noun. For example, he says about Ojibwa, which lacks a dedicated class of adjectives: "Because words expressing adjectival meaning are really verbs iin Ojibwa,
instances in which such words modify nouns, like (6a), are, strictly speaking, relative clauses" (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://wals.info/chapter/87">http://wals.info/chapter/87</a>).<br>
<br>
Here it might have been better to use the term "property word" rather than "adjective", but in practice, it is often very hard to say whether a language has a "dedicated" class of adjectives (Dixon 2004 even claims that all languages have one, even if the distributional
differences may be very small). Thus, it is not the terms that count, but the definitions, and these are generally very clear in Dryer's WALS chapters.<br>
<br>
When Dryer says that adjectives are non-branching elements, as opposed to relative clauses which are branching elements, he evidently means the most frequent types of adnominal property words and adnominal clauses. Adjective phrases can be long ("very proud
of his achievements"), and relative clauses can be short ("who left"), but it is clear that overall, relative clauses (a formally defined concept) tend to be longer than property-word modifiers (a semantically defined concept).<br>
<br>
In general, I find it important to recognize that typology works with a heterogeneous class of comparative concepts, which may be defined in a variety of ways (formally, functionally, with respect to discourse, with respect to translation equivalence, etc.).
Typology does not (necessarily) work in terms of the descriptive categories that are the most useful in analyzing languages, and it need not define its concepts in a uniform way.<br>
<br>
Best wishes,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 18.01.16 13:41, Jan Rijkhoff wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:EBCB141063E9C040A28A5B906370F04851453991@SRVUNIMBX05.uni.au.dk" type="cite">
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I think the last word has not been said about Greenbergian word order correlations, mainly because semantic categories and formal categories have not always been clearly distinguished in post-Greenberg (1963) word order studies (Rijkhoff 2009a).* For example,
both Hawkins (1983: 12) and Dryer (1992: 120) claimed that they followed Greenberg (1963: 74) in ‘basically applying semantic criteria’ to identify members of the same category across languages, but in practice these semantically defined forms and constructions
are treated as formal entities.</div>
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If Hawkins and Dryer applied semantic criteria in their cross-linguistic studies, this implies, for example, that their semantic category Adjective must also have included verbal and nominal expressions of adjectival notions (such as relative clauses and genitives),
which are typically used in languages that lack a dedicated class of adjectives:</div>
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<u><span>Kiribati<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></u><span>(Ross 1998: 90)</span></div>
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<span>(1)<i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i><i>te<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>uee<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>ae<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>e<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>tikiraoi</i><span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>(relative
clause)</span><span></span></div>
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<span style="font-variant: small-caps;"><span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>art<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span><span>flower <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="font-variant: small-caps;">rel <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>3<span style="font-variant: small-caps;">sg.s
<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span></span></span>be.pretty<span> </span></span><span></span></div>
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<span><span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>‘a pretty flower’ (lit. ‘a flower that pretties’)<span> </span></span></div>
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<span> </span></p>
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<u><span>Makwe</span></u><span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(Devos 2008: 136)</span></div>
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<span>(2)<span></span><i> muú-nu<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>w-á=ki-búúli</i><span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>(genitive)</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';">
<span><span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-variant: small-caps;">nc1</span>-person <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="font-variant: small-caps;">pp1-gen=nc7</span>-silence</span></div>
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<span> ‘a silent person’ (lit. ‘person of silence’)</span></div>
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Relative Clause and Genitive are, however, also semantic categories in their own right in word order studies by Dryer and Hawkins.</div>
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When these authors subsequently formulate rules and principles on the basis of the data they collected, the semantic category labels (Adjective, Genitive, Relative Clause, but also e.g. Demonstrative and Numeral) appear to stand for<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><u>formal</u>categories,
i.e. categories whose members are defined on the basis of structural or morphosyntactic criteria. This apparent change of category is not explained, but can be seen in the case of the ‘Heaviness Serialization Principle’ (Hawkins 1983: 90-91) and the ‘Branching
Direction Theory’ (Dryer 1992).</div>
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Hawkins defined ‘heaviness’ in terms of such non-semantic criteria as (a) length and quantity of morphemes, (b) quantity of words, (c) syntactic depth of branching nodes, and (d) inclusion of dominated constituents.</div>
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<span lang="EN-GB">(3)<span><i> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i></span><i>Heaviness Serialization Principle</i></span><span lang="EN-GB"><span>:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Rel<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>≥<sub>R</sub><span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Gen<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>≥<sub>R</sub><span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>A<span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>≥<sub>R<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></sub><span> </span>Dem/Num</span></div>
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Thus a member of the (semantic? formal?) category Relative Clause is ‘heavier’ than a member of the (semantic? formal?) category Adjective. But Hawkins’s semantic category Adjective must also have included members of the ‘heavy’ formal categories Genitive and
Relative Clause (see (1) and (2) above). It is not clear whether the original members of the single semantic category Adjective were later ‘re-categorized’ and distributed over the formal categories Adjective, Genitive and Relative Clause in the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i><span lang="EN-GB">Heaviness
Serialization Principle</span></i>.</div>
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Dryer’s ‘Branching Direction Theory’ refers to a structural feature of the internal syntactic organization of a constituent. According to the ‘Branching Direction Theory’, relative clauses and genitives are phrases, i.e. members of a branching category, whose
position relative to the noun correlates with the relative order of Verb and Object, whereas adjectives are non-branching elements, whose position relative to the noun does not correlate with OV or VO order (Dryer 1992: 107-8, 110-1). In this case, too, one
may assume that the semantic category Adjective also included members of the formal categories Genitive and Relative Clause (see examples above). Again we do not know what happened to the branching/phrasal members of the erstwhile(?) semantic category Adjective
(relative clauses, genitives) when this category was turned into the formal (non-branching) category Adjective that is part of the ‘Branching Direction Theory’.</div>
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So as to avoid categorial confusion in cross-linguistic research (and so as to make it possible to produce more reliable results), it is necessary to keep formal and semantic categories apart, as members of these two categories have their own ordering rules
or preferences. I also think it is an illusion to think we can give a satisfactory account of the grammatical behaviour of linguistic units -including word order- without taking into consideration functional (interpersonal) categories or ‘discourse units’
(Rijkhoff 2009b, 2015).</div>
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* Greenberg (1963: 88) made it clear that he sometimes used formal criteria to remove certain members of a semantic category before he formulated a universal, as in the case of his Universal 22.</div>
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<font size="2"><b>References</b></font></div>
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<font size="2">Devos, M. 2008.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>A Grammar of Makwe</i>. München: Lincom Europa.</font></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';">
<font size="2">Dryer, M. S., 1992. The Greenbergian word order correlations.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Language</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>68-1, 81-138.</font></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 14.2pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; text-indent: -14.2pt;">
<font size="2">Greenberg, J. H. 1963. Some universals of grammar with particular reference to the order of meaningful elements. In J. H. Greenberg (ed.),<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Universals of Language</i>, 73-113. Cambridge MA: MIT.</font></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 14.2pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; text-indent: -14.2pt;">
<font size="2">Hawkins, J. A., 1983.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Word Order Universals: Quantitative analyses of linguistic structure</i>. New York: Academic Press.</font></div>
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<font size="2"><span>Rijkhoff, J. 2009a.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span>On the (un)suitability of semantic categories.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Linguistic Typology</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>13-1,
95‑104.</span></font></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 14.2pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; text-indent: -14.2pt;">
<font size="2"><span>Rijkhoff, Jan. 2009b.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>On the co-variation between form and function of adnominal possessive modifiers in Dutch and English.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span>In William B.
McGregor (ed.),<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>The Expression of Possession</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(</span>The Expression of Cognitive Categories [ECC] 2),<span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>51‑106. Berlin
and New York: Mouton de Gruyter.</span></font></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 14.2pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; text-indent: -14.2pt;">
<font size="2"><span>Rijkhoff, J. 2015. Word order. In James D. Wright (editor-in-chief),<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>International Encyclopedia of the Social & Behavioral Sciences (Second Edition)</i>, Vol. 25, 644–656. Oxford: Elsevier.</span><span style=""></span></font></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 14.2pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; text-indent: -14.2pt;">
<font size="2">Ross, M. 1998. Proto-Oceanic adjectival categories and their morphosyntax.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Oceanic Linguistics</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>37-1, 85-119.</font></div>
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<span class="p-match" style="font-family: 'Times New Roman';">Jan Rijkhoff</span></div>
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<div id="divRpF867311" style="direction: ltr;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Lingtyp [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]
on behalf of Alan Rumsey [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Alan.Rumsey@anu.edu.au">Alan.Rumsey@anu.edu.au</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, January 18, 2016 12:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Lingtyp] Structural congruence as a dimension of language complexity/simplicity<br>
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">Many thanks to all of you who responded to my posting on this topic, both online and off. All the readings you have pointed me to have indeed been highly relevant and very useful, including an excellent recent publication by Jennifer
Culbertson that she pointed me to in her offline response, at <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="x-msg://24/redir.aspx?REF=sGl5RomnpE-BF3Bt1foWHNs4EZ9sLFpNokQs5Y0pxDO6ZjPcAyDTCAFodHRwOi8vam91cm5hbC5mcm9udGllcnNpbi5vcmcvYXJ0aWNsZS8xMC4zMzg5L2Zwc3lnLjIwMTUuMDE5NjQvYWJzdHJhY3Q." target="_blank">http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.01964/abstract</a></div>
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<div style="">Thanks especially to Matthew Dryer for pointing out that the Greenbergian ‘universal’ I had used as an example – the putative association between VSO and noun-adjective order — had been falsified by his much more thorough 1992 study <span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">“The
Greenbergian Word Order Correlations”. My reading of that article and further correspondence with him has confirmed that, by contrast, Greenberg’s universals no 3 and 4 were solidly confirmed by his study, namely that SOV </span>languages are far more likely
to have postpositions than prepositions and that the reverse is true for VSO languages. </div>
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<div>Drawing on all your suggestions, Francesca and I have now finished a draft of the paper referred to in my posting, called '<span style="text-align: center;"><span lang="EN-US">Structural Congruence as a Dimension of Language Complexity: </span></span><span lang="EN-US">An
Example from Ku Waru Child Language’.<b> </b></span>If any of you would like to read it please let me know and I’ll send it to you.</div>
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<div>Alan</div>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
Beethovenstrasse 15
D-04107 Leipzig
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