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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Randy says that calling Chinese SVO
implies that Chinese has such categories. I am surprised that he
would say that. I would have thought it was obvious that
classifying languages typologically does not entail that the terms
employed in the typological classification correspond to
categories in the language. Nor does it mean that these categories
determine or are determined by word order. I have certainly made
that clear in my work that classifying a language as SVO makes no
claim about the categories in the language, nor that these
categories determine word order even if the language has such
categories.<br>
<br>
Matthew<br>
<br>
On 1/18/16 7:42 PM, Randy John LaPolla (Prof) wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:2A374FEB-177D-460A-80CF-C11D256CEE24@ntu.edu.sg"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<font class="" face="Verdana" size="4">Dan’s point is very
important. For example, most people describing languages do not
know how to distinguish agents, topics, and syntactic pivots
(“subject”), and just call anything that occurs initially as
“subject”. Sometimes even when the linguist is clear on the
difference, they still use the word “subject”. E.g. Y. R. Chao,
in his grammar of spoken Chinese, clearly stated there is
nothing like what is referred to as “subject” in English, as all
clauses are simply topic-comment, but he still used the term
“subject” for what he said was purely a topic. This has confused
generations of linguists, and they call Chinese SVO, which not
only implies that Chinese has such categories, but also that
these categories either determine or are determined by word
order. See the following paper arguing against the use of such
shortcuts, and arguing for more careful determination of the
factors determining word order in a language:</font>
<div class=""><font class="" face="Verdana" size="4"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:3pt; margin-left:18pt;
text-align:justify; text-indent:-18pt; line-height:15pt">
<span class="" style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-AU">LaPolla,
Randy J. & Dory Poa. 2006. On describing word order.
<i class="">Catching Language: The Standing Challenge of
Grammar Writing, </i>ed. by Felix Ameka, Alan Dench,
& Nicholas Evans, 269-295. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:3pt; margin-left:18pt;
text-align:justify; text-indent:-18pt; line-height:15pt">
<span class="" style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span
class="" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://randylapolla.net/papers/LaPolla_and_Poa_2006_On_Describing_Word_Order.pdf"
class=""><span class="" style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-AU">http://randylapolla.net/papers/LaPolla_and_Poa_2006_On_Describing_Word_Order.pdf</span></a></span><span
class="" style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-AU"></span></p>
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="Verdana" size="4">Randy</font></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
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<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 19 Jan 2016, at 10:21 am, Everett,
Daniel <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:DEVERETT@bentley.edu" class="">DEVERETT@bentley.edu</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="auto" class="">
<div class="">One of the biggest problems in this
regard that I have noticed is in grammars of
individual languages. Fieldworkers sometimes
confuse semantic and formal categories in the
grammars, classifying as a syntactic structure a
semantic category. If typologists are not
careful writers/readers of grammars they may
bring such confusions into their typological
studies. Sounds obvious. But not always so. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Dan<br class="">
<br class="">
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
On Jan 18, 2016, at 21:11, Matthew Dryer <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu" class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu">dryer@buffalo.edu</a></a>>
wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">
<p class="MsoNormal">I agree entirely with
Jan on the need to distinguish semantic
categories and formal categories. In fact,
in a paper of mine that is I have nearly
completed revising, I have an entire
section arguing that generative approaches
fail to note the fact that a given
semantic category often has many different
formal expressions over different
languages and that this is problematic for
implicit assumptions that equate semantic
categories with formal categories.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But Jan seems to think
that this presents some sort of problem
for the work I have done in word order
typology.<span class="" style="">
</span>He says “<span class=""
style="font-family:Times" lang="UZ-CYR">When
these authors subsequently formulate
rules and principles on the basis of the
data they collected, the semantic
category labels (Adjective, Genitive,
Relative Clause, but also e.g.
Demonstrative and Numeral) appear to
stand for <u class="">formal</u>
categories, i.e. categories whose
members are defined on the basis of
structural or morphosyntactic criteria</span>”.
But this is false. They stand for semantic
categories.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Jan seems to think that
it is somehow a problem that a given
semantic category may have many different
formal realizations across different
languages. However, neither in his email
nor in his 2009 paper in LT does he
explain why he sees this as a problem.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">There is, I admit, a <i
class="" style="">potential</i> problem.<span
class="" style="">
</span>Namely, it might be the case that
for the purposes of word order
correlations, the syntactic realization of
a semantic category makes a major
difference and that lumping the different
syntactic realizations together is
obscuring these differences. That is why I
have spent considerable time over the
years collecting data, not only on word
order in particular languages, but also on
the syntactic realization in these
languages, precisely to examine
empirically whether the syntactic
realization makes a difference. The result
is that while the syntactic realization
sometimes makes a small difference, it is
overall irrelevant: by and large,
generalizations over semantic categories
apply the same, regardless of the
syntactic realization.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<span class="" style="">Matthew</span> <br
class="">
<br class="">
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</style>On 1/18/16 4:41 AM, Jan Rijkhoff wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="">I think the
last word has not been said about
Greenbergian word order correlations,
mainly because semantic categories and
formal categories have not always been
clearly distinguished in post-Greenberg
(1963) word order studies (Rijkhoff
2009a).* For example, both Hawkins
(1983: 12) and Dryer (1992: 120) claimed
that they followed Greenberg (1963: 74)
in ‘basically applying semantic
criteria’ to identify members of the
same category across languages, but in
practice these semantically defined
forms and constructions are treated as
formal entities. </p>
<div class="" style=""> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">If Hawkins
and Dryer applied semantic criteria in
their cross-linguistic studies, this
implies, for example, that their
semantic category Adjective must also
have included verbal and nominal
expressions of adjectival notions (such
as relative clauses and genitives),
which are typically used in languages
that lack a dedicated class of
adjectives:</p>
<div class="" style=""> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><u class=""><span
class="" style="">Kiribati
</span></u><span class="" style="">(Ross
1998: 90)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><span
class="" style="">(1)<i class="">
</i><i class="" style="">te<span
class="" style=""> </span>uee<span
class="" style="">
</span>ae<span class="" style="">
</span>e<span class="" style="">
</span>
tikiraoi</i><span class="" style="">
</span>(relative clause)</span><span
class="" style=""></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><span
class="" style=""><span class=""
style="">
</span>art<span class="" style=""> </span></span><span
class="" style="">flower
<span class=""
style="font-variant:small-caps">rel
</span>3<span class=""
style="font-variant:small-caps">sg.s
<span class="" style=""></span></span>be.pretty<span
class="" style=""> </span>
</span><span class="" style=""></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-autospace:none"><span
class="" style=""><span class=""
style="">
</span>‘a pretty flower’ (lit. ‘a
flower that pretties’)<span class=""
style="">
</span></span></p>
<div class="" style=""><span class=""
style=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><u class=""><span
class="" style="">Makwe</span></u><span
class="" style=""> (Devos 2008: 136)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
class="" style="">(2)<span class=""
style=""></span><i class="" style="">
muú-nu<span class="" style="">
</span>w-á=ki-búúli</i><span
class="" style=""> </span>(genitive)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
class="" style=""><span class=""
style="">
</span><span class=""
style="font-variant:small-caps">nc1</span>-person
<span class=""
style="font-variant:small-caps">
pp1-gen=nc7</span>-silence</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
class="" style=""> ‘a silent
person’ (lit. ‘person of silence’)</span></p>
<div class="" style=""> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">Relative
Clause and Genitive are, however, also
semantic categories in their own right
in word order studies by Dryer and
Hawkins.</p>
<div class="" style=""> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">When these
authors subsequently formulate rules and
principles on the basis of the data they
collected, the semantic category labels
(Adjective, Genitive, Relative Clause,
but also e.g. Demonstrative and Numeral)
appear to stand for <u class="">formal</u>
categories, i.e. categories whose
members are defined on the basis of
structural or morphosyntactic criteria.
This apparent change of category is not
explained, but can be seen in the case
of the ‘Heaviness Serialization
Principle’ (Hawkins 1983: 90-91) and the
‘Branching Direction Theory’ (Dryer
1992).</p>
<div class="" style=""> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-right:13.75pt;
text-autospace:none">Hawkins defined
‘heaviness’ in terms of such
non-semantic criteria as (a) length and
quantity of morphemes, (b) quantity of
words, (c) syntactic depth of branching
nodes, and (d) inclusion of dominated
constituents. </p>
<div class="" style="margin-right:13.75pt"> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;
text-justify:inter-ideograph;
page-break-after:avoid;
text-autospace:none">
<span class="" style="" lang="EN-GB">(3)<span
class="" style=""><i class=""> </i>
</span><i class="" style="">Heaviness
Serialization Principle</i></span><span
class="" style="" lang="EN-GB"><span
class="" style="">:
</span>Rel<span class="" style=""> </span>≥<sub
class="">R</sub><span class=""
style="">
</span>Gen<span class="" style=""> </span>≥<sub
class="">R</sub><span class=""
style="">
</span>A<span class="" style=""> </span>≥<sub
class="">R </sub><span class=""
style=""> </span>Dem/Num</span>
</p>
<div class="" style="margin-right:13.75pt"> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-right:13.75pt;
text-autospace:none">Thus a member of
the (semantic? formal?) category
Relative Clause is ‘heavier’ than a
member of the (semantic? formal?)
category Adjective. But Hawkins’s
semantic category Adjective must also
have included members of the ‘heavy’
formal categories Genitive and Relative
Clause (see (1) and (2) above). It is
not clear whether the original members
of the single semantic category
Adjective were later ‘re-categorized’
and distributed over the formal
categories Adjective, Genitive and
Relative Clause in the <i class=""
style=""><span class="" style=""
lang="EN-GB">Heaviness Serialization
Principle</span></i>.</p>
<div class="" style="margin-right:13.75pt"> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">Dryer’s
‘Branching Direction Theory’ refers to a
structural feature of the internal
syntactic organization of a constituent.
According to the ‘Branching Direction
Theory’, relative clauses and genitives
are phrases, i.e. members of a branching
category, whose position relative to the
noun correlates with the relative order
of Verb and Object, whereas adjectives
are non-branching elements, whose
position relative to the noun does not
correlate with OV or VO order (Dryer
1992: 107-8, 110-1). In this case, too,
one may assume that the semantic
category Adjective also included members
of the formal categories Genitive and
Relative Clause (see examples above).
Again we do not know what happened to
the branching/phrasal members of the
erstwhile(?) semantic category Adjective
(relative clauses, genitives) when this
category was turned into the formal
(non-branching) category Adjective that
is part of the ‘Branching Direction
Theory’.</p>
<div class="" style=""> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">So as to
avoid categorial confusion in
cross-linguistic research (and so as to
make it possible to produce more
reliable results), it is necessary to
keep formal and semantic categories
apart, as members of these two
categories have their own ordering rules
or preferences. I also think it is an
illusion to think we can give a
satisfactory account of the grammatical
behaviour of linguistic units -including
word order- without taking into
consideration functional (interpersonal)
categories or ‘discourse units’
(Rijkhoff 2009b, 2015). </p>
<div class="" style=""> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">* Greenberg
(1963: 88) made it clear that he
sometimes used formal criteria to remove
certain members of a semantic category
before he formulated a universal, as in
the case of his Universal 22.</p>
<div class="" style=""> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font
class="" size="2"><b class="" style="">References</b></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font
class="" size="2">Devos, M. 2008. <i
class="" style="">
A Grammar of Makwe</i>. München:
Lincom Europa.</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font
class="" size="2">Dryer, M. S., 1992.
The Greenbergian word order
correlations.
<i class="" style="">Language</i>
68-1, 81-138.</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:14.2pt;
text-indent:-14.2pt"><font class=""
size="2">Greenberg, J. H. 1963. Some
universals of grammar with particular
reference to the order of meaningful
elements. In J. H. Greenberg (ed.),
<i class="" style="">Universals of
Language</i>, 73-113. Cambridge MA:
MIT.</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:14.2pt;
text-indent:-14.2pt"><font class=""
size="2">Hawkins, J. A., 1983.
<i class="" style="">Word Order
Universals: Quantitative analyses of
linguistic structure</i>. New York:
Academic Press.</font></p>
<p class="" style="margin-left:14.2pt;
text-indent:-14.2pt"><font class=""
size="2"><span class="" style="">Rijkhoff,
J. 2009a.
</span><span class="" style="">On the
(un)suitability of semantic
categories. <i class="" style="">
Linguistic Typology</i> 13-1,
95‑104.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:14.2pt;
text-indent:-14.2pt;
text-autospace:none">
<font class="" size="2"><span class=""
style="">Rijkhoff, Jan. 2009b. </span>On
the co-variation between form and
function of adnominal possessive
modifiers in Dutch and English.
<span class="" style="">In William B.
McGregor (ed.), <i class=""
style="">The Expression of
Possession</i> (</span>The
Expression of Cognitive Categories
[ECC] 2),<span class="" style="">
51‑106. Berlin and New York: Mouton
de Gruyter.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:14.2pt;
text-indent:-14.2pt;
text-autospace:none">
<font class="" size="2"><span class=""
style="">Rijkhoff, J. 2015. Word
order. In James D. Wright
(editor-in-chief),
<i class="" style="">International
Encyclopedia of the Social &
Behavioral Sciences (Second
Edition)</i>, Vol. 25, 644–656.
Oxford: Elsevier.</span><span
class="" style=""></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:14.2pt;
text-indent:-14.2pt"><font class=""
size="2">Ross, M. 1998. Proto-Oceanic
adjectival categories and their
morphosyntax.
<i class="" style="">Oceanic
Linguistics</i> 37-1, 85-119.</font></p>
<div class="" style="margin-left:14.2pt;
text-indent:-14.2pt"><span
class="p-match"> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:14.2pt;
text-indent:-14.2pt"><span
class="p-match">Jan Rijkhoff</span></p>
<div class="" style=""> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="font-family:Tahoma;
font-size:13px">
</div>
</div>
<div class="" style="font-family:'Times
New Roman'; font-size:16px">
<hr tabindex="-1" class="">
<div id="divRpF867311" class=""
style="direction:ltr"><font class=""
face="Tahoma" size="2"><b class="">From:</b>
Lingtyp [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]
on behalf of Alan Rumsey [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:Alan.Rumsey@anu.edu.au"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Alan.Rumsey@anu.edu.au">Alan.Rumsey@anu.edu.au</a></a>]<br
class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b> Monday,
January 18, 2016 12:23 PM<br
class="">
<b class="">To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a></a><br
class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b> Re:
[Lingtyp] Structural congruence as a
dimension of language
complexity/simplicity<br class="">
</font><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span
id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=""
style="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">Many
thanks to all of you who responded
to my posting on this topic, both
online and off. All the readings
you have pointed me to have indeed
been highly relevant and very
useful, including an excellent
recent publication by Jennifer
Culbertson that she pointed me to
in her offline response, at <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.01964/abstract"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.01964/abstract">http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.01964/abstract</a></a></div>
</span>
<div class="" style=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="" style="">Thanks
especially to Matthew Dryer for
pointing out that the Greenbergian
‘universal’ I had used as an example
– the putative association between
VSO and noun-adjective order — had
been falsified by his much more
thorough 1992 study <span class=""
style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">“The
Greenbergian Word Order
Correlations”. My reading of that
article and further correspondence
with him has confirmed that, by
contrast, Greenberg’s universals
no 3 and 4 were solidly confirmed
by his study, namely that SOV </span>languages
are far more likely to have
postpositions than prepositions and
that the reverse is true for VSO
languages. </div>
<div class="" style=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Drawing on all your
suggestions, Francesca and I have
now finished a draft of the paper
referred to in my posting, called '<span
class="" style="text-align:center"><span
class="" lang="EN-US">Structural
Congruence as a Dimension of
Language Complexity: </span></span><span
class="" lang="EN-US">An Example
from Ku Waru Child Language’.<b
class=""> </b></span>If any of
you would like to read it please let
me know and I’ll send it to you.</div>
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<div class="">Alan</div>
</div>
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