<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">I was thinking of wings too, which are a kind of structural/functional unit irrespective of common origin,<div class="">like typological categories. Any body part with a particular function would serve for comparison, but allow</div><div class="">for variation (and give the usual category boundary troubles, but still be useful for comparison). </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">In the realm of social practices, things like marriage or property possession/ownership might be analogues to comparative concepts in language. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Suzanne</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 20, 2016, at 4:02 PM, Matthew Dryer <<a href="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu" class="">dryer@buffalo.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Notions like wings in biology are somewhat analogous.<br class=""><br class="">On 1/20/16 4:46 PM, Östen Dahl wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote cite="mid:a1d2937eed894f4d89d4efd07d5548fc@ebox-prod-srv07.win.su.se" type="cite" style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I am still a bit puzzled by Martin’s “comparative concepts” so here is a question for him: Are comparative concepts specific to linguistics or can you find something analogous in other fields, such as the natural and social sciences?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">östen<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;" class="">Från:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Lingtyp [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;">mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">För<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Matthew Dryer<br class=""><b class="">Skickat:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>den 20 januari 2016 20:32<br class=""><b class="">Till:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Pete</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;" class="">r Arkadiev<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;"><peterarkadiev@yandex.ru></a>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br class=""><b class="">Ämne:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Lingtyp] Structural congruence as a dimension of language complexity/simplicity<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Peter,<span class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">The point of classifying the language as SVO is that it behaves like an SVO language as far as word order correlations are concerned. Not classifying it as SVO means that one would fail to explain the correlations. Hawkins’ theory predicts that such a language counts as SVO. The class of languages I treat as SVO is defined roughly as those languages where the statistically dominant order in usage is AVP. There is nothing that the grammars of this set of languages share: these languages resemble each other only at the level of usage, not at the level of grammar. Hawkins’ theory predicts that the set of languages that I classify as SVO should tend to have prepositions. His theory predicts that the set of languages that have prepositions need not have anything in common in their grammars, only at the level of usage.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Matthew<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><br class=""><span class="">On 1/19/16 2:58 PM, Peter Arkadiev wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">Then I can't help asking a very naive question, appearing as though I haven't read the relevant literature (I have): if, as Matthew says, "classifying a language as SVO makes no claim about the categories in the language, nor that these categories determine word order even if the language has such categories", what's the point of classifying the given language as SVO in the first place? If the categories of a particular language can be totally at variance with those notions which typologists employ for comparative purposes, then the fact that a given language happens to be classified as SVO appears to be completely arbitrary and non-informative. Even worse, given this stance regarding the correspondence between comparative concepts and language-particular categories, word order correlations just can't follow, let alone be explained. Correlations between, say, OV and NPost in a given language are and have to be stated in terms of the categories relevant for <o:p class=""></o:p><
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<pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""> this lan<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""> g<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">uage, aren't they? And if such language-particular correlations can be mapped on robustly observed cross-linguistic patterns subject to well-articulated processing explanations such as those advanced by Hawkins, then, by necessity, this mapping cannot be just arbitrary, and vice versa.<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">Again, I admit that I don't understand something.<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">Best,<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">Peter<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
</pre></blockquote><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><br class=""><fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset><br class=""><pre wrap="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">_______________________________________________
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</pre></blockquote><br style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Lingtyp mailing list</span><br style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>