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<p class="MsoNormal">Peter,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I don’t know whether my last email answered
any of your
questions, but let me simply respond with a set of assertations.
Basically,
every opinion you express in your email, I agree with:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">1. <span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>Yes,
<span
style="mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Times;mso-fareast-font-family:
"Times
New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-fareast-language:
EN-US">word order correlations are reflected in grammars<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">2.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>Yes,
<span
style="mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Times;mso-fareast-font-family:
"Times
New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-fareast-language:
EN-US">usage and grammar correspond to each other in
principled and non-arbitrary
ways<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Times;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-language:EN-US">3.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>I suspect
that Hawkins would agree with me that the notion of OV
language includes, not
only languages where there is a grammatical rule specifying
that the language
is OV but also languages where OV is simply more frequent in
usage.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Times;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-language:EN-US">4.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>I too am
interested in what grammars of different languages have in
common and how they
differ, much less, I must confess, in the differences or
similarities in usage<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Times;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-language:EN-US">5.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>I’m not
sure what you might mean by “grammars are inaccessible to
typology (and vice versa)”,
but I can’t imagine an interpretation that I would agree with,
so we must agree
on that one too.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Times;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The fact that the word order correlations are
reflected in
grammars doesn’t mean that word order correlations are only
reflected in
grammars. Consider a language which lacks a rule saying the
language is OV but
where the actual factors conditioning word order result in a
higher frequency
of OV. Such languages usually have postpositions rather than
prepositions. But
since the grammar doesn’t say the language is OV (it’s only OV
at the level of
usage), the correlation between OV and postpositions is not
reflected in the
grammar. The only reason I’m interested in usage in this domain
is that any
account of the word order correlations that attempts to
characterize it as a
generalization over grammars necessarily fails since the
correlations go beyond
grammar.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">There is a difference between being
interested in what
different languages have in common and how they differ and being
interested in
what <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">grammars of</i>
different languages
have in common and how they differ. One cannot understand the
word correlations
if one is only interested in what grammars have in common and
how they differ.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-fareast-font-family:
"ＭＳ
明朝";mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-
bidi;
mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:JA;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA">Matthew</span>
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<![endif]--><!--StartFragment--><!--EndFragment-->On 1/20/16 5:54 PM,
Peter Arkadiev wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:1128411453330466@web6h.yandex.ru" type="cite">
<div>Matthew,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I must confess that I failed to understand what you mean,
especially by "usage". I have always believed, evidently
erroneously, that word order correlations are somehow reflected
in grammars, and I have always understood Hawkins claims (as
reflected in his 2004 and 2014 books) as saying that usage and
grammar correspond to each other in principled and non-arbitrary
ways. When Hawkins writes, e.g. about the differences between OV
and VO languages in chapter 7 of his 2014 book, it is much more
abour grammar than about usage - or I must admit that I have
grossly misunderstood him.</div>
<div>But anyway, I am interested in what grammars of different
languages have in common and how they differ, much less, I must
confess, in the differences or similarities in usage. From what
you say it appears to me that grammars are inaccessible to
typology (and vice versa) - a conclusion I will never accept.</div>
<div>But again, perhaps I simply don't understand...</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Peter</div>
<div> </div>
<div>-- <br>
Peter Arkadiev, PhD<br>
Institute of Slavic Studies<br>
Russian Academy of Sciences <br>
Leninsky prospekt 32-A 119991 Moscow<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru">peterarkadiev@yandex.ru</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.inslav.ru/ob-institute/sotrudniki/279-peter-arkadiev">http://www.inslav.ru/ob-institute/sotrudniki/279-peter-arkadiev</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>20.01.2016, 22:32, "Matthew Dryer" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu"><dryer@buffalo.edu></a>:</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>
<p>Peter,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The point of classifying the language as SVO is that it
behaves like an SVO language as far as word order
correlations are concerned. Not classifying it as SVO
means that one would fail to explain the correlations.
Hawkins’ theory predicts that such a language counts as
SVO. The class of languages I treat as SVO is defined
roughly as those languages where the statistically
dominant order in usage is AVP. There is nothing that the
grammars of this set of languages share: these languages
resemble each other only at the level of usage, not at the
level of grammar. Hawkins’ theory predicts that the set of
languages that I classify as SVO should tend to have
prepositions. His theory predicts that the set of
languages that have prepositions need not have anything in
common in their grammars, only at the level of usage.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Matthew</p>
<br>
On 1/19/16 2:58 PM, Peter Arkadiev wrote:</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:542361453233484@web18j.yandex.ru"
type="cite">
<pre>Then I can't help asking a very naive question, appearing as though I haven't read the relevant literature (I have): if, as Matthew says, "classifying a language as SVO makes no claim about the categories in the language, nor that these categories determine word order even if the language has such categories", what's the point of classifying the given language as SVO in the first place? If the categories of a particular language can be totally at variance with those notions which typologists employ for comparative purposes, then the fact that a given language happens to be classified as SVO appears to be completely arbitrary and non-informative. Even worse, given this stance regarding the correspondence between comparative concepts and language-particular categories, word order correlations just can't follow, let alone be explained. Correlations between, say, OV and NPost in a given language are and have to be stated in terms of the categories relevant for
this lan
g
uage, aren't they? And if such language-particular correlations can be mapped on robustly observed cross-linguistic patterns subject to well-articulated processing explanations such as those advanced by Hawkins, then, by necessity, this mapping cannot be just arbitrary, and vice versa.
Again, I admit that I don't understand something.
Best,
Peter
</pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
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