<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"></head><body>It seems to me that "comparative concept" in Martin's usage is close (if not identical) to what is called "etic " while language specific "descriptve categories" are "emic cagegories" as discussed by Keneth Pike abd used in anthropology long ago, with the additional understanding that we are talking about conceptual notions of potential relevance to morohosyntax / discourse (not just to sound or eg. "marriage" in anthropology, etc.) <div><br></div><div>Aren't these the same kind of distinctions just under new names by a (somewhat) new generation?</div><div><br></div><div>Doris Payne</div><br><br><br>-------- Original message --------<br>Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] comparative concepts<br>From: Matthew Dryer <dryer@buffalo.edu><br>To: lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org<br>CC: Re: [Lingtyp] comparative concepts<br><br><br><div class="moz-cite-prefix">
<p class="MsoNormal">Paolo’s comment here illustrates very well
how wings is a
comparative concept.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The primary motivation for my arguing against
crosslinguistic categories in my 1997 paper was that linguists
would debate for
marginal cases whether a category in a particular language was
an instance of
the crosslinguistic category, but I argued that such debates
were merely
terminological, not substantive.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Claiming that bats don’t have wings is an
example of the
same phenomenon: it all depends on how you define wings.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>Paolo is assuming one
definition, but many
people would assume a different definition.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>There is no “right” definition.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<br>
<br>
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<![endif]--><!--StartFragment--><!--EndFragment-->On 1/22/16 10:28 AM,
Paolo Ramat wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:177E350859AE4F83965EBAA9A6C38CBE@PaoloPC" type="cite">
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#000000">
<div>Hi David,</div>
<div>your comparison of linguistic facts with bats helps me to
clarify (and this will be the end of my interventions!) my
point: actually, bats don’t have wings but a kind of
membrane that FUNCTIONS like wings which prototypically are
formed by an ordered collection of plumes. Similarly, in the
Lat. construct <em>me poenitet </em>the accus. <em>me </em>has
the same FUNCTION as Engl. <em>I </em>in <em>I‘m sorry </em>or
Germ.<em> mir </em>in <em>Es tut mir leid </em>(call it
Patient or Experiencer). Once we have established what
wings, PAT or EXP are, we can draw more or less narrow
comparisons between bats, bees, eagles etc. and between the
theta roles implemented by <em>me, I, mir </em>etc. </div>
<div>Consequently, I agree with your conclusions thet
“comparative concepts [build on linguists’ analysis of
languages] have a place in the grammatical descriptions of
individual languages” and that “the ontological diversity of
language-specific categories and comparative concepts should
be present within the grammatical descriptions of individual
languages” .<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> The process is
twofold : from the empirical observation of bats, bees,
eagles etc. and Lat.,Engl.,Germ etc. to the creation of
comparative concepts (call them abstract <em>tertia
comparationis</em>) back to the analysis of flying
objects and of linguistic extant data.</span></div>
<div><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"></span> </div>
<div><span style="mso-spacerun: yes">Best,</span></div>
<div><span style="mso-spacerun: yes">Paolo</span></div>
<div><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"></span> </div>
<div>°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR:
#000000">Prof.Paolo Ramat</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR:
#000000">Academia Europaea<br>
Università di Pavia<br>
Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia)<br>
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<div style="font-color: black"><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="gil@shh.mpg.de" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">David Gil</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 22, 2016 3:14 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
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<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] comparative concepts</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I've greatly enjoyed
following this high-quality discussion: thank you all.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">In particular, I
think the discussion has helped me to articulate an
unease that I've always felt about the distinction
between language-specific categories and what Martin
calls comparative concepts.<span style="mso-spacerun:
yes"> </span>I agree wholeheartedly that we need to
distinguish between, say, the Latin Dative, and a
typologically-informed concept of dative that the Latin
Dative may or may not instantiate to whatever degree.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>(I also agree that
it's unfortunate that we don't have enough distinct
terms to assign to all of these different things, and
that we sometimes end up falling prey to the resulting
terminological confusion.)<span style="mso-spacerun:
yes"> </span>Where I think I part ways with some of
my colleagues is that I do not accept that
language-specific categories and comparative concepts
constitute two distinct and well-defined ontological
types.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Let's take the wing
analogy.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>I
agree that a statement such as "bats have wings" may be
of more interest for somebody interested in comparative
evolution than for a specialist in bats — in that sense
it resembles a comparative concept in linguistics.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>But still, bats do
have wings, even though they may differ in many ways
from those of birds or bees.<span style="mso-spacerun:
yes"> </span>And yes, ontologically bat wings are a
very different type of thing than, say, whatever feature
of bat DNA it is that "generates" those wings.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>However, these
different ontological types all have a place within a
description of bats, even though a bat specialist might
be more interested in the DNA while the comparative
evolutionist will be more interested in the wings.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Getting back to
languages, let's consider three hypothetical (and
somewhat simplistic cases of) languages that Matthew
would classify as having SVO basic word order:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Language A:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>has well-defined
Ss and Os, and specific linearization rules that put the
S before the V and the O after it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Language B:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>has well-defined
Ss and Os, but no linearization rules that refer to
them; instead it has specific linearization rules that
put the A before the V and the P after it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Language C:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>does not have
well-defined Ss and Os, but has specific linearization
rules that put the A before the V and the P after it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">In Matthew's WALS
chapter, all three languages are characterized as SVO;
this is an example of what Martin and others call a
comparative concept.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>And
as we have found out over the last several decades,
basic word order is a very useful comparative concept
for us to have.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>However,
our three hypothetical languages arrive at their SVO
order in very different ways, giving rise to the
impression that the respective bottom-up
language-specific descriptions of the three languages
will share no common statement to the effect that they
have SVO word order.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>And
indeed, adequate bottom-up language-specific
descriptions of these three languages should look very
different, reflecting the very different provenances of
their SVO word orders.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">However, I would
like to suggest that there is also a place within the
bottom-up language-specific description of each of the
three languages for some kind of statement to the effect
that the language has SVO word order (in the sense of
Matthew's WALS chapter).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</span>Of course this is a different kind of statement
to the ones previously posited, making reference to
different levels of description.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>But we're already
used to multiple levels of description within
language-specific descriptions, for example when we talk
about Ss and Os but also As and Ps, topics and comments,
and so forth.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>So
there is no good reason not to allow for a WALS-style
word-order category such as SVO not to be written into
the grammatical descriptions of each of our hypothetical
three languages, even if in some cases it may be
"derivative" or "epiphenomenal", and even if in some
cases it is of relatively little interest to language
specialists. (Though as Matthew pointed out earlier on
in this thread, the basic word order facts of a language
have implications regarding other properties of the
language in question even in those cases where the basic
word order is "derivative" of other factors.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">So what I'm
suggesting, then, is that so-called comparative concepts
have a place in the grammatical descriptions of
individual languages.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>This
is not to deny that comparative concepts are different
kinds of creatures, which — by definition — are of
greater relevance to cross-linguistic comparison than to
the understanding of individual languages.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>It follows that
the ontological diversity of language-specific
categories and comparative concepts should be present
within the grammatical descriptions of individual
languages.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Some
will object to this, but I have no problem with the
proposition that a good description of a language will
be ontologically heterogeneous, e.g. containing some
statements that are psychologically real and others that
are not.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>(I
note here Eitan's suggestion earlier in this thread that
some comparative concepts may also be cognitively real.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Finally, and
somewhat tangentially, a practical consideration:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>a good reference
grammar, while describing a language on its own terms
without imposing categories from outside, should at the
same time maintain a parallel reader-friendly
typologically-informed narrative, one of whose major
tasks is to mention all of those cross-linguistically
familiar typological categories — e.g. case marking,
agreement, gender, and so forth — that are absent from
the language, if only to reassure the reader that the
author didn't just omit mention of them for reasons of
space, lack of interest, or whatnot.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-812-73567992
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