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With respect to glossing in general, I think that 'Advanced
glossing' as proposed by HH Lieb and S Drude for the DOBES-programme
makes a lot of sense (though the following description contains some
unnecessary polemics):<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://dobes.mpi.nl/documents/Advanced-Glossing1.pdf">http://dobes.mpi.nl/documents/Advanced-Glossing1.pdf</a><br>
<br>
Lieb and Drude try to get away from the item-and-arrangement
ideology that still underlies glossing conventions in typology.
Category labels are clearly language-specific. (But then, the format
targets language documentation, not typological studies.)<br>
<br>
I would also regard the Leipzig Glossing Rules as a useful standard
for abbreviations and the 'orthography' of glosses. And I agree that
most glosses used in typological studies are no more than "reading
aids", as Johanna seemed to imply. If they were to have any
theoretical significance, or if they were to be interpretable in
some way, we should at least indicate what combines with what within
a word, and what relates to what (or what takes scope over what).
For instance, in<br>
<br>
adam-lar-a<br>
man-PL-DAT<br>
<br>
there seems to be a hierarchical structure implied:<br>
[adam-lar]-a<br>
<br>
'-lar' indicates a property of (the denotation of) 'adam', and '-a'
indicates a property of (the denotation of) 'adam-lar'. There's
probably no constituent '-lar-a' in that word, but that's not
recoverable from the gloss.<br>
<br>
Advanced glossing provides for word-internal structure and relations
between the constituents of a word (though in a somewhat inelegant
way).<br>
<br>
Volker<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 27.01.2016 um 11:09 schrieb Hedvig
Skirgård:<br>
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cite="mid:CAHHFGT3EfVoQRJS0iz8MefGujsd2cgmbSRqNZbVGde7YfKV9Dg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
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<div>Thanks Sebastian, I always appreciate those papers :).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Just to be even clearer from my part as well, by a database I
simply here mean a non-linear source of information with
multiple connections possible. A wiki for example would
qualify. <br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>/Hedvig</div>
</div>
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<p style="margin:0cm 0cm
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style="font-size:9pt"><b>Hedvig Skirgård</b><br>
PhD Candidate<br>
<span style="color:rgb(196,89,17)">The
Wellsprings of Linguistic Diversity</span></span></p>
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and Language<br>
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style="font-size:9pt">Rm 4203, H.C. Coombs
Building (#9)<br>
The Australian National University</span></p>
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style="font-size:9pt">Acton ACT 2601</span></p>
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<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 27 January 2016 at 18:54, Sebastian
Nordhoff <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de"
target="_blank">sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span
class=""><br>
<br>
On 01/27/2016 02:18 AM, Stef Spronck wrote:<br>
> Hi Hedvig,<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Just to respond to your last point about preferring
databases over grammar books: as someone originally
trained as a typologist and then writing a fieldwork-based
thesis, I agree that that experience changes the way in
which you read grammars entirely. I also agree that there
can never be enough collaboration between fieldworkers and
typologists.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> But I don't think we should conflate the rightly
increased focus on the accountability of grammar writers,
resulting in the professionalisation of archiving
practices, with the goals of grammatical description. The
maturation of language documentation as a discipline,
separate from language description, following Himmelmann's
work has been an extremely important development. But
linked corpora, as the product of language documentation,
are not grammars. I think that a 'traditonal book grammar'
as an intermediary between data repositories and typology
has value, exactly because it explicitly serves to
interpret the labels in our glosses and tries to account
for a language as a system. This does introduce a
distinction between the interpretation of glosses in
desciptive grammars and in typology, as the many
interesting contributions to the present discussion aim to
address.<br>
<br>
</span>+1 Stef<br>
<br>
It is important to make the distinction between a grammar as
a "set of<br>
rules" and a grammar as a didactic text genre (the
grammatical<br>
description). These have different communicative goals and
different<br>
audiences.<br>
The "set of rules" part can be modeled as a typological
database. The<br>
didactic part is normally not modeled, but running prose
text. Further<br>
information about this distinction and about ways to
represent both<br>
types in computers can be found in the following
publications<br>
<br>
Nordhoff, Sebastian. 2008 Electronic Reference Grammars for
Typology:<br>
Challenges and Solutions. JLDC 2(2). 296-324<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/handle/10125/4352/nordhoff.pdf?sequence=7"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/handle/10125/4352/nordhoff.pdf?sequence=7</a><br>
<br>
Nordhoff, Sebastian (ed.). 2012. Electronic Grammaticography
(LD&C<br>
Special Publication No. 4). Manoa: University of Hawai‘i
Press.<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/?p=263" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/?p=263</a><br>
<br>
Nordhoff, Sebastian and Harald Hammarström (2014).<br>
Archiving grammatical descriptions. In David Nathan &
Peter K. Austin<br>
(eds) Language Documentation and Description, vol 12:
Special Issue<br>
on Language Documentation and Archiving. London: SOAS. pp.
164-<br>
186 <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.elpublishing.org/PID/143"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.elpublishing.org/PID/143</a><br>
<br>
Best<br>
Sebastian<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Best,<br>
> Stef<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Stef Spronck<br>
><br>
> KU Leuven, Linguistics, research unit FunC<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.arts.kuleuven.be/ling/func"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.arts.kuleuven.be/ling/func">http://www.arts.kuleuven.be/ling/func</a></a>>
| KU Leuven profile<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://http//www.kuleuven.be/wieiswie/nl/person/00098925"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://http//www.kuleuven.be/wieiswie/nl/person/00098925</a>>
| Personal website<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://people.anu.edu.au/stef.spronck/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://people.anu.edu.au/stef.spronck/</a>><br>
<div>
<div class="h5">><br>
> ________________________________<br>
> Van: Lingtyp [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]
namens Hedvig Skirgård [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com">hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com</a>]<br>
> Verzonden: woensdag 27 januari 2016 1:31<br>
> Aan: Östen Dahl<br>
> CC: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
> Onderwerp: Re: [Lingtyp] What do glossing labels
stand for?<br>
><br>
> Thank you everyone, in particular Nordhoff for that
very clear list :D. It's exactly what I was thinking
too.<br>
><br>
> The Leipzig glossing rules do state that they are
not absolute rules, but merely summing up already
existing conventions. I.e. you can't really "apply the
Leipzig glossing rules" without giving any more
information, but just use it as a help in formulating
your own glossing rules. Right? Or am I misreading it?<br>
><br>
> I agree with Dahl though, a paragraph on
comparative concepts vs lg-spec descriptive (or whatever
terms you want to use) would be useful.<br>
><br>
> Intertwined with this is that lg-spec authors of
grammars often envisage certain readers, like
typologists and sometimes look for "guidance" in
typological literature - an enterprise that is
problematic like we've discussed. Furthermore, there's
the potential issues with expecting PhD students to
write a grammar (sketch) in four years and with a quite
restrictive page count.<br>
><br>
> I've worked in a grammatical survey the last few
years on african languages, and interacted a lot with
fieldworkers working on those languages (extremely
rewarding!!) and discussed their manuscripts with them.
(This is something I highly-highly encourage every
grammar-reading typologist to do if they aren't
already). From my relatively limited experience reading
grammars so far (compared to say Dahl or Dryer) there
are some things that I've found more helpful as a reader
and tried to suggest to the writers. Basically I'd like
them to be longer, more repetitive, more examples and
explicit in more assumptions. Preferably, for me, I'd
like a grammar not to be book really, but rather a
database with linked corpora. In connection to that, I'd
like for there to be better standards in publishing
corpora and getting proper credit for it.<br>
><br>
> Might I also recommend this issue of LD&C that
brings up new methods in grammar writing?<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/?p=263"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/?p=263</a><br>
><br>
> /Hedvig<br>
><br>
><br>
> Hedvig Skirgård<br>
> PhD Candidate<br>
> The Wellsprings of Linguistic Diversity<br>
><br>
> ARC Centre of Excellence for the Dynamics of
Language<br>
><br>
> School of Culture, History and Language<br>
> College of Asia and the Pacific<br>
><br>
> Rm 4203, H.C. Coombs Building (#9)<br>
> The Australian National University<br>
><br>
> Acton ACT 2601<br>
><br>
> Australia<br>
><br>
> Co-char of Public Relations<br>
><br>
> International Olympiad of Linguistics<br>
><br>
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> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.ioling.org"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.ioling.org</a><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.ioling.org"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ioling.org">http://www.ioling.org</a></a>><br>
<span class="">><br>
> On 27 January 2016 at 09:14, Östen Dahl <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:oesten@ling.su.se"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:oesten@ling.su.se">oesten@ling.su.se</a></a><mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:oesten@ling.su.se"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:oesten@ling.su.se">oesten@ling.su.se</a></a>>>
wrote:<br>
> OK, do I understand this correctly? The labels stand
for language-specific categories, but normally we
arbitrarily choose labels that are names of comparative
concepts, without asserting "any relation between the
morpheme being glossed and a comparative concept however
defined (beyond the mnemonic usefulness).". But at the
same time, according to the document at <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/lingua/resources/glossing-rules.php"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/lingua/resources/glossing-rules.php">https://www.eva.mpg.de/lingua/resources/glossing-rules.php</a></a>,
the glosses are intended to "give information about the
meanings and grammatical properties of individual words
and parts of words". Can you do that without asserting any
relation between the comparative concept identified by the
label and the meaning of the item being glossed? The
document says: "In many cases, either a category label or
a word from the metalanguage is acceptable". Does this
mean that lexical glosses are also only mnemonic?<br>
><br>
> There is also a pedagogical problem here. There is no
mention in the document of the distinction between
descriptive categories and comparative concepts. The
question is if people who write typological papers as well
as those who read them understand the significance of
glosses. I think there is a general tendency towards
fundamentalism in most of us in the sense that we tend to
take things more literally than they were intended to. So
I suspect that most people who see the gloss DAT will
think that it means that the author really thinks that the
form in question is a dative, or at least matches some
idea of what datives are like. Or that if the German word
"Pferd" is glossed as 'horse', that means that it means
'horse'. In other words, it might be worth having some
discussion in the document about these problems.<br>
><br>
> östen<br>
><br>
><br>
> -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----<br>
</span>> Från: Lingtyp [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
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För William Croft<br>
<span class="">> Skickat: den 26 januari 2016 17:23<br>
</span>> Till: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a></a>><br>
<span class="">> Ämne: Re: [Lingtyp] What do glossing
labels stand for?<br>
><br>
> Exactly.<br>
><br>
> Bill<br>
><br>
</span><span class="">> On Jan 26, 2016, at 1:11 AM,
Sebastian Nordhoff <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de">sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de</a><mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de">sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de</a></a>>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Dear list,<br>
>> - a language-specific category is a concept with
a label chosen by the<br>
>> linguist.<br>
>> - the label is in principle arbitrary.<br>
>> - for mnemonic reasons, a label evocative of the
concept being<br>
>> described is normally used.<br>
>> - since some labels are rather long, it is
convenient to abbreviate them.<br>
>> - some abbreviations have several plausible
expansions (SUPerlative,<br>
>> SUPeressive, SUPine)<br>
>> - a standardization of the match
abbreviation-long label is therefore<br>
>> useful for disambiguation purposes. This is what
the Leipzig glossing<br>
>> rules do in my opinion<br>
>> - the Leipzig glossing rules therefore match
abbreviations with common<br>
>> concept labels. An author using a Leipzig gloss
does, however, not<br>
>> assert any relation between the morpheme being
glossed and a<br>
>> comparative concept however defined (beyond the
mnemonic usefulness).<br>
>><br>
>> Best wishes<br>
>> Sebastian<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On 01/25/2016 09:27 PM, Östen Dahl wrote:<br>
>>> Here is a question that I would like to pose
to the members of the ALT list. If we accept the
distinction between "descriptive categories" and
"comparative concepts", what do the labels we use in
glossing example sentences stand for - in particular, the
labels defined in the Leipzig glossing rules? I have some
thoughts about this myself but would like to hear what
others think first.<br>
>>> östen<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
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Fax: ++49 3641 9-44542</pre>
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