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Good point, Doris. At the risk of harping on a single subject, in my forthcoming Chicago press book the etic/emic distinction plays a major role in the empiricist theories of language and culture that I try to develop. These are very important ideas that have
been misunderstood and under-estimated for decades outside of some circles.
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<div class="">Dan</div>
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<div class="">On Jan 22, 2016, at 1:13 PM, <a href="mailto:Dlpayne@uoregon.edu" class="">
Dlpayne@uoregon.edu</a> <<a href="mailto:dlpayne@uoregon.edu" class="">dlpayne@uoregon.edu</a>> wrote:</div>
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seems to me that "comparative concept" in Martin's usage is close (if not identical) to what is called "etic " while language specific "descriptve categories" are "emic cagegories" as discussed by Keneth Pike abd used in anthropology long ago, with the additional
understanding that we are talking about conceptual notions of potential relevance to morohosyntax / discourse (not just to sound or eg. "marriage" in anthropology, etc.) </span>
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Aren't these the same kind of distinctions just under new names by a (somewhat) new generation?</div>
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Doris Payne</div>
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Original message --------</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Subject:
Re: [Lingtyp] comparative concepts</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">From:
Matthew Dryer <</span><a href="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">dryer@buffalo.edu</a><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">CC:
Re: [Lingtyp] comparative concepts</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
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Paolo’s comment here illustrates very well how wings is a comparative concept.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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The primary motivation for my arguing against crosslinguistic categories in my 1997 paper was that linguists would debate for marginal cases whether a category in a particular language was an instance of the crosslinguistic category, but I argued that such
debates were merely terminological, not substantive.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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Claiming that bats don’t have wings is an example of the same phenomenon: it all depends on how you define wings.<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Paolo is assuming one definition, but many people would assume a different definition.<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>There
is no “right” definition.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">Matthew</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<br class="">
On 1/22/16 10:28 AM, Paolo Ramat wrote:<br class="">
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<blockquote cite="mid:177E350859AE4F83965EBAA9A6C38CBE@PaoloPC" type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
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<div class="">Hi David,</div>
<div class="">your comparison of linguistic facts with bats helps me to clarify (and this will be the end of my interventions!) my point: actually, bats don’t have wings but a kind of membrane that FUNCTIONS like wings which prototypically are formed by an
ordered collection of plumes. Similarly, in the Lat. construct<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><em class="">me poenitet<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></em>the accus.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><em class="">me<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></em>has
the same FUNCTION as Engl.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><em class="">I<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></em>in<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><em class="">I‘m sorry<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></em>or Germ.<em class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>mir<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></em>in <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><em class="">Es
tut mir leid<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></em>(call it Patient or Experiencer). Once we have established what wings, PAT or EXP are, we can draw more or less narrow comparisons between bats, bees, eagles etc. and between the theta roles implemented
by<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><em class="">me, I, mir<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></em>etc. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
<div class="">Consequently, I agree with your conclusions thet “comparative concepts [build on linguists’ analysis of languages] have a place in the grammatical descriptions of individual languages” and that “the ontological diversity of language-specific categories
and comparative concepts should be present within the grammatical descriptions of individual languages” .<span class=""> The process is twofold : from the empirical observation of bats, bees, eagles etc. and Lat.,Engl.,Germ etc. to the creation of comparative
concepts (call them abstract<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><em class="">tertia comparationis</em>) back to the analysis of flying objects and of linguistic extant data.</span></div>
<div class=""><span class=""></span> </div>
<div class=""><span class="">Best,</span></div>
<div class=""><span class="">Paolo</span></div>
<div class=""><span class=""></span> </div>
<div class="">°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°</div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">Prof.Paolo Ramat</div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">Academia Europaea<br class="">
Università di Pavia<br class="">
Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia)<br class="">
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<div class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a moz-do-not-send="true" title="gil@shh.mpg.de" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" class="">David Gil</a></div>
<div class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, January 22, 2016 3:14 PM</div>
<div class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a moz-do-not-send="true" title="lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" class="">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a></div>
<div class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Lingtyp] comparative concepts</div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class="">I've greatly enjoyed following this high-quality discussion: thank you all.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span> </div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class="">In particular, I think the discussion has helped me to articulate an unease that I've always felt about the distinction between language-specific categories and what Martin calls comparative concepts.<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>I
agree wholeheartedly that we need to distinguish between, say, the Latin Dative, and a typologically-informed concept of dative that the Latin Dative may or may not instantiate to whatever degree.<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>(I
also agree that it's unfortunate that we don't have enough distinct terms to assign to all of these different things, and that we sometimes end up falling prey to the resulting terminological confusion.)<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Where
I think I part ways with some of my colleagues is that I do not accept that language-specific categories and comparative concepts constitute two distinct and well-defined ontological types.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span> </div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class="">Let's take the wing analogy.<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>I agree that a statement such as "bats have wings" may be of more interest for somebody interested in comparative evolution than for a
specialist in bats — in that sense it resembles a comparative concept in linguistics.<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>But still, bats do have wings, even though they may differ in many ways from those of birds or bees.<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>And
yes, ontologically bat wings are a very different type of thing than, say, whatever feature of bat DNA it is that "generates" those wings.<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>However, these different ontological types all have
a place within a description of bats, even though a bat specialist might be more interested in the DNA while the comparative evolutionist will be more interested in the wings.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span> </div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class="">Getting back to languages, let's consider three hypothetical (and somewhat simplistic cases of) languages that Matthew would classify as having SVO basic word order:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class="">Language A:<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>has well-defined Ss and Os, and specific linearization rules that put the S before the V and the O after it.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span> </div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class="">Language B:<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>has well-defined Ss and Os, but no linearization rules that refer to them; instead it has specific linearization rules that put the A before the V and
the P after it.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span> </div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class="">Language C:<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>does not have well-defined Ss and Os, but has specific linearization rules that put the A before the V and the P after it.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span> </div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class="">In Matthew's WALS chapter, all three languages are characterized as SVO; this is an example of what Martin and others call a comparative concept.<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>And as we have found
out over the last several decades, basic word order is a very useful comparative concept for us to have.<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>However, our three hypothetical languages arrive at their SVO order in very different
ways, giving rise to the impression that the respective bottom-up language-specific descriptions of the three languages will share no common statement to the effect that they have SVO word order.<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>And
indeed, adequate bottom-up language-specific descriptions of these three languages should look very different, reflecting the very different provenances of their SVO word orders.<span class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span> </div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class="">However, I would like to suggest that there is also a place within the bottom-up language-specific description of each of the three languages for some kind of statement to the effect that the language has SVO word order (in the sense
of Matthew's WALS chapter).<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Of course this is a different kind of statement to the ones previously posited, making reference to different levels of description.<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>But
we're already used to multiple levels of description within language-specific descriptions, for example when we talk about Ss and Os but also As and Ps, topics and comments, and so forth.<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>So
there is no good reason not to allow for a WALS-style word-order category such as SVO not to be written into the grammatical descriptions of each of our hypothetical three languages, even if in some cases it may be "derivative" or "epiphenomenal", and even
if in some cases it is of relatively little interest to language specialists. (Though as Matthew pointed out earlier on in this thread, the basic word order facts of a language have implications regarding other properties of the language in question even in
those cases where the basic word order is "derivative" of other factors.)<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span> </div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class="">So what I'm suggesting, then, is that so-called comparative concepts have a place in the grammatical descriptions of individual languages.<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>This is not to deny that
comparative concepts are different kinds of creatures, which — by definition — are of greater relevance to cross-linguistic comparison than to the understanding of individual languages.<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>It follows
that the ontological diversity of language-specific categories and comparative concepts should be present within the grammatical descriptions of individual languages.<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Some will object to this,
but I have no problem with the proposition that a good description of a language will be ontologically heterogeneous, e.g. containing some statements that are psychologically real and others that are not.<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>(I
note here Eitan's suggestion earlier in this thread that some comparative concepts may also be cognitively real.)<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span> </div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class="">Finally, and somewhat tangentially, a practical consideration:<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>a good reference grammar, while describing a language on its own terms without imposing categories from
outside, should at the same time maintain a parallel reader-friendly typologically-informed narrative, one of whose major tasks is to mention all of those cross-linguistically familiar typological categories — e.g. case marking, agreement, gender, and so forth
— that are absent from the language, if only to reassure the reader that the author didn't just omit mention of them for reasons of space, lack of interest, or whatnot.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-812-73567992
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<pre wrap="" class="">_______________________________________________
Lingtyp mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
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<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Lingtyp
mailing list</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></div>
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