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<DIV> </DIV><FONT style='face: "Times' New roman?>On 13 April 2016 at
13:21, Östen Dahl <SPAN style="dir: ltr"><<A
style='href: "mailto:oesten@ling.su.se"'
target=_blank>oesten@ling.su.se</A>></SPAN> wrote:</FONT><BR>
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style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-FAMILY: "><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I think the question will be quite difficult to
answer, for several reasons. One is that it will be hard to find a sufficient
number of reasonably independent cases. The developments in European languages
that you are referring to are too close to each other in time and space to be
treated as separate from each other. You also need to have consistent criteria
for the determining when a category comes into being and when it disappears,
and also for choosing the set of categories you are generalizing over.
</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-FAMILY: "><FONT
face="Arial Narrow"><FONT style='face: "Arial' narrow?>I think <FONT
style='face: "Times' New roman?>Östen </FONT></FONT><FONT style='face: "Arial'
narrow?>is quite right. Don’t forget that (almost) all the European
languages developed their literary traditions on the basis of
translations of the Bible and the Evangiles, either from Greek or Latin (that,
on its turn, had borrowed the periphrastic construct<EM> habeo
dictum</EM> from the <EM>ècho legòmenon </EM>of the Greek original texts).[*].
</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: "><FONT face="Arial Narrow">Best,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: "><FONT face="Arial Narrow">P.
Rt.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: "> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: "><FONT face="Arial Narrow">[*] It is even
possible that the Greek periphrastic construct followed an Anc. Hebrew
model.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: "> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: "> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ">-------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ">Prof.Paolo Ramat</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ">Academia Europaea<BR>Università di
Pavia<BR>Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia)<BR></DIV>
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style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000"> </DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mashaha@gmail.com
href="mailto:mashaha@gmail.com">Maria Khachaturyan</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, April 14, 2016 6:32 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Lingtyp] lifespan of Perfect</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr>Dear Sergey,
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>A morphological exponent of perfect as a separate category, distinct from
preterit, can presumably be reconstructed at the level of proto-South Mande <
Mande family. Proto-South Mande is 2500 years old.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Hope that is helpful.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Maria</DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On 13 April 2016 at 13:21, Östen Dahl <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:oesten@ling.su.se"
target=_blank>oesten@ling.su.se</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<DIV lang=SV vlink="purple" link="blue">
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>I think the
question will be quite difficult to answer, for several reasons. One is that
it will be hard to find a sufficient number of reasonably independent cases.
The developments in European languages that you are referring to are too close
to each other in time and space to be treated as separate from each other. You
also need to have consistent criteria for the determining when a category
comes into being and when it disappears, and also for choosing the set of
categories you are generalizing over. That said, I think that 200-300 years is
too low at least for perfects. For instance, all Scandinavian languages have
perfects that are alive and well and show no strong tendencies to develop into
anything else, and they have histories that go back a millennium at least.
Your proposed figure seems to imply that perfects would be doomed to disappear
almost as soon as they have shown up. I do not think there is evidence for
such “programmed death”. This is not to deny that perfects are considerably
more unstable than categories like the (Simple) Past /Preterits in Germanic or
Slavic.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>Östen
Dahl<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'>Från:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif'> Lingtyp [mailto:<A
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"
target=_blank>lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</A>] <B>För </B>Sergey
Lyosov<BR><B>Skickat:</B> den 13 april 2016 19:59<BR><B>Till:</B> Hartmut
Haberland <<A href="mailto:hartmut@ruc.dk"
target=_blank>hartmut@ruc.dk</A>><BR><B>Kopia:</B> lingtyp <<A
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
target=_blank>lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</A>>; <A
href="mailto:goetzsche@hum.aau.dk"
target=_blank>goetzsche@hum.aau.dk</A><BR><B>Ämne:</B> Re: [Lingtyp] lifespan
of Perfect<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=h5>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><BR>Thank you! Sure. But this
is einzelsprachlich.<U></U><U></U></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN lang=RU>Среда, 13
апреля 2016, 18:04 +03:00 от </SPAN>Hartmut Haberland<SPAN lang=RU>
<</SPAN><A href="mailto:hartmut@ruc.dk" target=_blank>hartmut<SPAN
lang=RU>@</SPAN>ruc<SPAN lang=RU>.</SPAN>dk</A><SPAN
lang=RU>>:<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>A classic must be Erika Mihevc, La disparition du parfait
dans le grec de la basse époque; Ljubljana: Razprave SAZU, razred za filol.
in lit. vede V, 1959, 93–154.<BR><BR>Hartmut
Haberland<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><BR>Den 13/04/2016 kl. 16.01
skrev Sergey Lyosov
<<A>sergelyosov@inbox.ru</A>>:<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P><SPAN lang=EN-US>Dear colleagues, </SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P><SPAN lang=EN-US>by the “lifespan” of an “unstable” morphosyntactic
category, I mean the time during which it is opposed to its nearest
semantic partners. A good example is the interaction between the semantic
Perfect and the semantic Preterit in a language. Say, in a certain variety
of spoken German, “Ich habe gesprochen” and “Ich sprach” used to be
opposed for some time, and then, in the course of the Präteritumschwund,
“Ich sprach” fell out of oral usage, and the erstwhile Perfect “Ich
habe gesprochen” became a new Preterit. The same happened in various
dialects of Spanish and Italian, with different outcomes, i.e., sometimes
it was the new (analytical) form that has fallen in disuse.
</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P><SPAN lang=EN-US>The question is: what is known, typologically, about a
medium/average lifetime of these “fragile” (because of their complex
semantic organization) semantic categories?</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P><SPAN lang=EN-US></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P><SPAN lang=EN-US>Best,</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P><SPAN lang=EN-US></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P><SPAN lang=EN-US>Sergey</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P><SPAN lang=EN-US></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P><SPAN lang=EN-US> </SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN lang=RU>Среда, 13
апреля 2016, 8:23 +03:00 от </SPAN>Eitan Grossman<SPAN lang=RU>
<</SPAN><A href="mailto:eitan.grossman@mail.huji.ac.il"
target=_blank>eitan<SPAN lang=RU>.</SPAN>grossman<SPAN
lang=RU>@</SPAN>mail<SPAN lang=RU>.</SPAN>huji<SPAN
lang=RU>.</SPAN>ac<SPAN lang=RU>.</SPAN>il</A><SPAN
lang=RU>>:<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Hi Sergey, <U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Could you explain a bit what you mean by 'lifespan'?
<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Eitan<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR clear=all><U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Eitan Grossman <U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Lecturer, Department of Linguistics/School of
Language Sciences<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Hebrew University of
Jerusalem<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Tel: <A href="tel:%2B972%202%20588%203809"
target=_blank value="+97225883809">+972 2 588
3809</A><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Fax: <A href="tel:%2B972%202%20588%201224"
target=_blank value="+97225881224">+972 2 588
1224</A><U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 6:12 PM, Sergey Lyosov
<<A>sergelyosov@inbox.ru</A>> wrote:<U></U><U></U></P>
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<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P>Dear colleagues,<U></U><U></U></P>
<P>what do we know about the life-time of “unstable” verbal
categories, such as Perfect or Resultative? My studies of the history
of the verb in Semitic languages make me suggest that this
lifespan may amount to some 200-300 years or so. Are there
studies of the problem based on a representative sample of
languages?<U></U><U></U></P>
<P>Best,<BR><BR>Sergey<U></U><U></U></P>
<P><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><BR><BR><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Lingtyp
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href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp"
target=_blank>http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</A><U></U><U></U></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P
class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P
class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt">
<DIV>
<P
class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<BR>Lingtyp
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<P
class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Lingtyp
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