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<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: 10pt;">Dear Östen,<br>
Two thoughts in that connection:<br>
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1. I think the precise origin does matter since how else are we to calculate the timespan? And in the specific case of the Romance periphrastic perfects there are big differences. On the old so-called 'karstic' view there are examples of 'habeo' + Past Part
in Plautus that already display a perfect meaning which then so to speak goes underground and resurfaces in late Latin. However, on the view that emerges from the work of Adams and Haverling there aren't any convincing examples until the 6th or even 7th century,
i.e. almost a millennium later. That gives a very different lifespan for the construction.<br>
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2. I'm not sure why we can't take the different European languages as independent cases even if they have a shared origin. The historical profile is very different between English, Swedish and German and arguably after a certain point these are independent
historical sequences. The same goes for the differences between sub-families of Romance. And Greek, on the assumption that the origin there is post-Byzantine which is what I have seen argued by people like Amalia Moser, is yet a different profile.<br>
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Best<br>
Nigel<br>
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<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px">Professor Nigel Vincent, FBA MAE<br>
Professor Emeritus of General & Romance Linguistics<br>
The University of Manchester</div>
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<div>Linguistics & English Language<br>
School of Arts, Languages and Cultures<br>
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<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>The University of Manchester</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>Manchester M13 9PL</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>UK</div>
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http://staffprofiles.humanities.manchester.ac.uk/Profile.aspx?Id=nigel.vincent</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;" id="divRpF716508"><font face="Tahoma" color="#000000" size="2"><b>From:</b> Östen Dahl [oesten@ling.su.se]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 14, 2016 11:31 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nigel Vincent<br>
<b>Cc:</b> lingtyp<br>
<b>Subject:</b> SV: [Lingtyp] lifespan of Perfect<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">Actually, the precise origin of European perfects is maybe not so relevant for Sergey’s question. My original point was rather that the further developments of
perfects in various languages in western Europe cannot be taken as independent cases in determining the average cross-linguistic lifespans of perfects.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">Östen </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Från:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Lingtyp [mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org]
<b>För </b>Nigel Vincent<br>
<b>Skickat:</b> den 14 april 2016 12:08<br>
<b>Till:</b> Paolo Ramat <paoram@unipv.it><br>
<b>Kopia:</b> lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Ämne:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] lifespan of Perfect</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">A word of caution! Most people who have looked at the history of the Latin/Romance periphrastic perfects don't buy the story of a Greek origin - see work by Jim Adams and Gerd Haverling in particular. The chronology and the morphosyntactic
distribution don't fit. And anyway there are lots of other sources for the Romance literary traditions; you only have to think of the various chronicles and troubador and other love poetry.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">While I'm writing let me also mention an interesting Oslo doctoral thesis for which I was an 'opponent' last year. It is by Guro Fløgstad and is called 'Forking Paths' and chronicles the development of perfect meanings expressed by the
synthetic preterite verb forms in Porteno Spanish within the last 100 years.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Nigel</p>
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Sent from my iPhone</p>
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On 14 Apr 2016, at 10:42, Paolo Ramat <<a href="mailto:paoram@unipv.it" target="_blank">paoram@unipv.it</a>> wrote:</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">On 13 April 2016 at 13:21, Östen Dahl <</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"><a href="mailto:oesten@ling.su.se" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US">oesten@ling.su.se</span></a></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">>
wrote:</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">I think the question will be quite difficult to answer, for several reasons. One is that it will be hard to find a sufficient number of
reasonably independent cases. The developments in European languages that you are referring to are too close to each other in time and space to be treated as separate from each other. You also need to have consistent criteria for the determining when a category
comes into being and when it disappears, and also for choosing the set of categories you are generalizing over.
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Arial Narrow",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">I think Östen is quite right. Don’t forget that (almost) all the European languages developed their literary traditions on the basis of translations
of the Bible and the Evangiles, either from Greek or Latin (that, on its turn, had borrowed the periphrastic construct<em><span style="font-family:"Arial Narrow",sans-serif"> habeo dictum</span></em> from the
<em><span style="font-family:"Arial Narrow",sans-serif">ècho legòmenon </span></em>of the Greek original texts).[*].
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Narrow",sans-serif; color:black">Best,</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Narrow",sans-serif; color:black">P. Rt.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Narrow",sans-serif; color:black">[*] It is even possible that the Greek periphrastic construct followed an Anc. Hebrew model.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">-------------------------------</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">Prof.Paolo Ramat</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">Academia Europaea<br>
Università di Pavia<br>
Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia)</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black">
<a href="mailto:mashaha@gmail.com" title="mashaha@gmail.com" target="_blank">Maria Khachaturyan</a>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black"> Thursday, April 14, 2016 6:32 AM</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black">Cc:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black">
<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" title="lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">
lingtyp</a> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif; color:black"> Re: [Lingtyp] lifespan of Perfect</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">Dear Sergey,
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">A morphological exponent of perfect as a separate category, distinct from preterit, can presumably be reconstructed at the level of proto-South Mande < Mande family. Proto-South
Mande is 2500 years old.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">Hope that is helpful.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">Maria</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">On 13 April 2016 at 13:21, Östen Dahl <<a href="mailto:oesten@ling.su.se" target="_blank">oesten@ling.su.se</a>> wrote:</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">I think the question will be quite difficult to answer, for several reasons. One is that it will be hard to find a sufficient number of
reasonably independent cases. The developments in European languages that you are referring to are too close to each other in time and space to be treated as separate from each other. You also need to have consistent criteria for the determining when a category
comes into being and when it disappears, and also for choosing the set of categories you are generalizing over. That said, I think that 200-300 years is too low at least for perfects. For instance, all Scandinavian languages have perfects that are alive and
well and show no strong tendencies to develop into anything else, and they have histories that go back a millennium at least. Your proposed figure seems to imply that perfects would be doomed to disappear almost as soon as they have shown up. I do not think
there is evidence for such “programmed death”. This is not to deny that perfects are considerably more unstable than categories like the (Simple) Past /Preterits in Germanic or Slavic.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">Östen Dahl</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">Från:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"> Lingtyp [mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]
<b>För </b>Sergey Lyosov<br>
<b>Skickat:</b> den 13 april 2016 19:59<br>
<b>Till:</b> Hartmut Haberland <<a href="mailto:hartmut@ruc.dk" target="_blank">hartmut@ruc.dk</a>><br>
<b>Kopia:</b> lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>;
<a href="mailto:goetzsche@hum.aau.dk" target="_blank">goetzsche@hum.aau.dk</a><br>
<b>Ämne:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] lifespan of Perfect</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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Thank you! Sure. But this is einzelsprachlich.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="RU">Среда, 13 апреля 2016, 18:04 +03:00 от
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">Hartmut Haberland</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="RU"> <</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"><a href="mailto:hartmut@ruc.dk" target="_blank">hartmut<span lang="RU">@</span>ruc<span lang="RU">.</span>dk</a></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="RU">>:</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">A classic must be Erika Mihevc, La disparition du parfait dans le grec de la basse époque; Ljubljana: Razprave SAZU, razred za filol. in lit. vede V, 1959, 93–154.<br>
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Hartmut Haberland</span></p>
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</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="NO-BOK">Den 13/04/2016 kl. 16.01 skrev Sergey Lyosov <</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"><a href="mailto:sergelyosov@inbox.ru" target="_blank"><span lang="NO-BOK">sergelyosov@inbox.ru</span></a></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="NO-BOK">>:</span></p>
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<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">Dear colleagues,
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">by the “lifespan” of an “unstable” morphosyntactic category, I mean the time during which it is opposed to its nearest semantic partners. A good example is the interaction between the
semantic Perfect and the semantic Preterit in a language. Say, in a certain variety of spoken German, “Ich habe gesprochen” and “Ich sprach” used to be opposed for some time, and then, in the course of the Präteritumschwund, “Ich sprach” fell out of oral usage,
and the erstwhile Perfect “Ich habe gesprochen” became a new Preterit. The same happened in various dialects of Spanish and Italian, with different outcomes, i.e., sometimes it was the new (analytical) form that has fallen in disuse.
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">The question is: what is known, typologically, about a medium/average lifetime of these “fragile” (because of their complex semantic organization) semantic categories?</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">Best,</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">Sergey</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="RU">Среда, 13 апреля 2016, 8:23 +03:00 от
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">Eitan Grossman</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="RU"> <</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"><a href="mailto:eitan.grossman@mail.huji.ac.il" target="_blank">eitan<span lang="RU">.</span>grossman<span lang="RU">@</span>mail<span lang="RU">.</span>huji<span lang="RU">.</span>ac<span lang="RU">.</span>il</a></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="RU">>:</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">Hi Sergey,
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<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">Could you explain a bit what you mean by 'lifespan'?
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<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">Eitan</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">Eitan Grossman
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<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">Lecturer, Department of Linguistics/School of Language Sciences</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">Hebrew University of Jerusalem</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 6:12 PM, Sergey Lyosov <</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"><a href="mailto:sergelyosov@inbox.ru" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US">sergelyosov@inbox.ru</span></a></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">>
wrote:</span></p>
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<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">Dear colleagues,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">what do we know about the life-time of “unstable” verbal categories, such as Perfect or Resultative? My studies of the history of the verb in Semitic languages make me suggest that this lifespan
may amount to some 200-300 years or so. Are there studies of the problem based on a representative sample of languages?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">Best,<br>
<br>
Sergey</span></p>
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