<div dir="ltr"><div>Hi Sergey,</div><div><br></div><div>I wonder if it might not be more useful to look at the age of constructions in terms of stages rather than lengths of actual time, along the lines of Bybee, Pagliuca & Perkins' 'futages' in their <a href="http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/E/bo3683926.html">Evolution of Grammar</a> and its pilot studies.</div><div><br></div><div>Sergey, as for assessing the stability of perfect constructions, why not consider making a study of this? The way has been shown by <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_Diversity_in_Space_and_Time">Johanna Nichols</a>, <a href="http://www.distributionaltypology.uzh.ch">Balthasar Bickel</a>, <a href="https://leidenuni.academia.edu/SørenWichmann">Søren Wichmann & Eric Holman</a>, and others. It might be fruitful to try a version of the Family Bias Method, which might help see whether the western European cases should be seen as independent cases or not.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Eitan</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">Eitan Grossman<div>Lecturer, Department of Linguistics/School of Language Sciences<br></div><div>Hebrew University of Jerusalem</div><div>Tel: +972 2 588 3809</div><div>Fax: +972 2 588 1224</div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 12:26 PM, Steve Pepper <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pepper.steve@gmail.com" target="_blank">pepper.steve@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">FYI: Guro's dissertation "Forking Paths", mentioned by Nigel, has just been published by Brill as <i>Preterit Expansion and Perfect Demise in Porteño Spanish and Beyond</i>. It is subtitled "A Critical Perspective on Cognitive Grammaticalization Theory" and <a href="http://www.brill.com/products/book/cognitive-grammaticalization-theory-porteno-spanish-and-beyond" target="_blank">it is available in Open Access here</a>.<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><div><br></div><div>Steve<br></div><div> </div></font></span></div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 12:08 PM, Nigel Vincent <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nigel.vincent@manchester.ac.uk" target="_blank">nigel.vincent@manchester.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>A word of caution! Most people who have looked at the history of the Latin/Romance periphrastic perfects don't buy the story of a Greek origin - see work by Jim Adams and Gerd Haverling in particular. The chronology and the morphosyntactic distribution
don't fit. And anyway there are lots of other sources for the Romance literary traditions; you only have to think of the various chronicles and troubador and other love poetry.</div>
<div>While I'm writing let me also mention an interesting Oslo doctoral thesis for which I was an 'opponent' last year. It is by Guro Fløgstad and is called 'Forking Paths' and chronicles the development of perfect meanings expressed
by the synthetic preterite verb forms in Porteno Spanish within the last 100 years.</div>
<div>Nigel</div>
<div><br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div><div><div>
<div><br>
On 14 Apr 2016, at 10:42, Paolo Ramat <<a href="mailto:paoram@unipv.it" target="_blank">paoram@unipv.it</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri';COLOR:#000000">
<div> </div>
<font>On 13 April 2016 at 13:21, Östen Dahl <span>
<<a>oesten@ling.su.se</a>></span> wrote:</font><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid">
<div lang="SV" vlink="purple" link="blue">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><font style="FONT-SIZE:11pt">I think the question will be quite difficult to answer, for several reasons. One is that it will be hard to find a sufficient number of reasonably independent cases.
The developments in European languages that you are referring to are too close to each other in time and space to be treated as separate from each other. You also need to have consistent criteria for the determining when a category comes into being and when
it disappears, and also for choosing the set of categories you are generalizing over.
</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Arial Narrow"><font>I think
<font>Östen </font></font><font>is quite right. Don’t forget that (almost) all the European languages developed their literary traditions on the basis of translations of the Bible and the Evangiles,
either from Greek or Latin (that, on its turn, had borrowed the periphrastic construct<em> habeo dictum</em> from the
<em>ècho legòmenon </em>of the Greek original texts).[*]. </font></font></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><font face="Arial Narrow">Best,</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial Narrow">P. Rt.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial Narrow">[*] It is even possible that the Greek periphrastic construct followed an Anc. Hebrew model.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>-------------------------------</div>
<div>Prof.Paolo Ramat</div>
<div>Academia Europaea<br>
Università di Pavia<br>
Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia)<br>
</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri';COLOR:#000000"> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline">
<div style="FONT:10pt tahoma">
<div> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="mashaha@gmail.com" href="mailto:mashaha@gmail.com" target="_blank">
Maria Khachaturyan</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 14, 2016 6:32 AM</div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a title="lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">
lingtyp</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] lifespan of Perfect</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline">
<div dir="ltr">Dear Sergey,
<div> </div>
<div>A morphological exponent of perfect as a separate category, distinct from preterit, can presumably be reconstructed at the level of proto-South Mande < Mande family. Proto-South Mande is 2500 years old.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Hope that is helpful.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Maria</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 13 April 2016 at 13:21, Östen Dahl <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:oesten@ling.su.se" target="_blank">oesten@ling.su.se</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid">
<div lang="SV" vlink="purple" link="blue">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri",sans-serif">I think the question will be quite difficult to answer, for several reasons. One is that it will be hard to find a sufficient number of reasonably independent
cases. The developments in European languages that you are referring to are too close to each other in time and space to be treated as separate from each other. You also need to have consistent criteria for the determining when a category comes into being
and when it disappears, and also for choosing the set of categories you are generalizing over. That said, I think that 200-300 years is too low at least for perfects. For instance, all Scandinavian languages have perfects that are alive and well and show no
strong tendencies to develop into anything else, and they have histories that go back a millennium at least. Your proposed figure seems to imply that perfects would be doomed to disappear almost as soon as they have shown up. I do not think there is evidence
for such “programmed death”. This is not to deny that perfects are considerably more unstable than categories like the (Simple) Past /Preterits in Germanic or Slavic.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri",sans-serif">Östen Dahl<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<div>
<div style="BORDER-TOP:#e1e1e1 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0cm;PADDING-TOP:3pt;PADDING-LEFT:0cm;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-RIGHT:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri",sans-serif">Från:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Lingtyp [mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]
<b>För </b>Sergey Lyosov<br>
<b>Skickat:</b> den 13 april 2016 19:59<br>
<b>Till:</b> Hartmut Haberland <<a href="mailto:hartmut@ruc.dk" target="_blank">hartmut@ruc.dk</a>><br>
<b>Kopia:</b> lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>;
<a href="mailto:goetzsche@hum.aau.dk" target="_blank">goetzsche@hum.aau.dk</a><br>
<b>Ämne:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] lifespan of Perfect<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt"><br>
Thank you! Sure. But this is einzelsprachlich.<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="BORDER-TOP:medium none;BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0cm;PADDING-TOP:0cm;PADDING-LEFT:8pt;MARGIN:7.5pt;BORDER-LEFT:#0857a6 1pt solid;PADDING-RIGHT:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt"><span lang="RU">Среда, 13 апреля 2016, 18:04 +03:00 от
</span>Hartmut Haberland<span lang="RU"> <</span><a href="mailto:hartmut@ruc.dk" target="_blank">hartmut<span lang="RU">@</span>ruc<span lang="RU">.</span>dk</a><span lang="RU">>:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">A classic must be Erika Mihevc, La disparition du parfait dans le grec de la basse époque; Ljubljana: Razprave SAZU, razred za filol. in lit. vede V, 1959, 93–154.<br>
<br>
Hartmut Haberland<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt"><br>
Den 13/04/2016 kl. 16.01 skrev Sergey Lyosov <<a>sergelyosov@inbox.ru</a>>:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:5pt;MARGIN-TOP:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u> </p>
<p><span lang="EN-US">Dear colleagues, </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US">by the “lifespan” of an “unstable” morphosyntactic category, I mean the time during which it is opposed to its nearest semantic partners. A good example is the interaction between the semantic Perfect and the semantic Preterit in a language.
Say, in a certain variety of spoken German, “Ich habe gesprochen” and “Ich sprach” used to be opposed for some time, and then, in the course of the Präteritumschwund, “Ich sprach” fell out of oral usage, and the erstwhile Perfect “Ich habe gesprochen” became
a new Preterit. The same happened in various dialects of Spanish and Italian, with different outcomes, i.e., sometimes it was the new (analytical) form that has fallen in disuse.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US">The question is: what is known, typologically, about a medium/average lifetime of these “fragile” (because of their complex semantic organization) semantic categories?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"></span><u></u><u></u> </p>
<p><span lang="EN-US">Best,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"></span><u></u><u></u> </p>
<p><span lang="EN-US">Sergey</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"></span><u></u><u></u> </p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u> </p>
<blockquote style="BORDER-TOP:medium none;BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0cm;PADDING-TOP:0cm;PADDING-LEFT:8pt;MARGIN:7.5pt;BORDER-LEFT:#0857a6 1pt solid;PADDING-RIGHT:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt"><span lang="RU">Среда, 13 апреля 2016, 8:23 +03:00 от
</span>Eitan Grossman<span lang="RU"> <</span><a href="mailto:eitan.grossman@mail.huji.ac.il" target="_blank">eitan<span lang="RU">.</span>grossman<span lang="RU">@</span>mail<span lang="RU">.</span>huji<span lang="RU">.</span>ac<span lang="RU">.</span>il</a><span lang="RU">>:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Sergey, <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Could you explain a bit what you mean by 'lifespan'? <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Eitan<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Eitan Grossman <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Lecturer, Department of Linguistics/School of Language Sciences<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hebrew University of Jerusalem<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Tel: <a href="tel:%2B972%202%20588%203809" value="+97225883809" target="_blank">
+972 2 588 3809</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Fax: <a href="tel:%2B972%202%20588%201224" value="+97225881224" target="_blank">
+972 2 588 1224</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 6:12 PM, Sergey Lyosov <<a>sergelyosov@inbox.ru</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="BORDER-TOP:medium none;BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0cm;PADDING-TOP:0cm;PADDING-LEFT:6pt;MARGIN-LEFT:4.8pt;BORDER-LEFT:#cccccc 1pt solid;PADDING-RIGHT:0cm;MARGIN-RIGHT:0cm">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u> </p>
<p>Dear colleagues,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>what do we know about the life-time of “unstable” verbal categories, such as Perfect or Resultative? My studies of the history of the verb in Semitic languages make me suggest that this lifespan may amount to some 200-300 years or so. Are there studies
of the problem based on a representative sample of languages?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Best,<br>
<br>
Sergey<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u><u></u> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a>Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:5pt;MARGIN-TOP:5pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a>Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<p></p>
<hr>
_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span>Lingtyp mailing list</span><br>
<span><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a></span><br>
<span><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></span><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>