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Randy,<br>
<br>
Yes, my chapter in WALS characterizes the English and Mandarin
constructions as "of the same type structurally", and yes, the two
constructions are different from each other in precisely the ways
that you describe!<br>
<br>
That's what typology does: dividing things into classes according to
one set of criteria, thereby putting in to the same class things
that are very different according to other sets of criteria. And
that's precisely what has happened here. My WALS chapter asks
whether an adjective can occur on its own as a noun, without any
further morphosyntactic marking and the answer for both English and
Mandarin is the same: no. It then further asks, for languages that
require such morphosyntactic marking, what the formal properties of
the marking is, distinguishing between affixes and separate words,
and between forms that occur before and after their host adjective.
And once again, Mandarin and English come out the same, with a
separate word that occurs after its host adjective. That's all the
WALS chapter purports to say.<br>
<br>
Now clearly many constructions in different languages with the same
WALS feature values will differ from each other in myriad other
ways, as is the case for English and Mandarin here. You may feel
that the typology proposed in the "Adjectives without Nouns" WALS
map overlooks what's "most important" about the constructions in
question, and you could indeed be right about that. I suspect,
however, that an alternative "Adjective without Nouns" map
distinguishing between "English and Mandarin types" on the basis of
headedness would have been impractical to produce, since it is too
theory dependent, and hence it would not have been possible to glean
the necessary information from available grammatical descriptions of
a sufficiently large sample of languages. (In fact, while I agree
entirely with your description of the difference between English and
Mandarin, I bet that there are even grammatical descriptions of
English and Mandarin out there that would see things differently.)<br>
<br>
I hope this clarifies matters ...<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/06/2016 08:20, Randy John LaPolla
(Prof) wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:D1881E39-6853-4865-8B0A-556FF68E02DF@ntu.edu.sg"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
Hi David,
<div class="">It seems from your message here and from your
chapter in WALS that the English construction with
<i class="">one</i> and the Chinese construction with <i
class="">de </i>are of the same type structurally. I don’t
know if I have read you right, but although they are made up of
the word representing a property concept followed by another
word, the two constructions are quite different (and the natures
of all of the words involved are different as well). In the
relevant use of English
<i class="">one</i>, it is a pro-form (see <span class=""
style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New
Roman"" lang="EN-US">
Goldberg, Adele E. & Laura A. Michaelis. 2016. One among
many: anaphoric <i class="">
one</i> and its relationship to numeral <i class="">one</i>.
</span><span class="" style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman""><i class="">Cognitive
Science</i> 40.4:1–26. DOI: 10.1111/cogs.12339</span> for
interesting discussion) and clearly the head of the phrase, but
in the Chinese example <i class="">de</i> is only a nominalizer
and clearly not the head of the phrase, either in terms of
structural behaviour (e.g. in English
<i class="">one</i> patterns like other heads, e.g. we can say
“this one”, but this is not the case with Chinese
<i class="">de</i>) or in terms of speakers’ “feel” for what is
the core element of the phrase.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">This sort of goes back to the discussion on
categorization we had back in January.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">All the best,</div>
<div class="">Randy</div>
<div class="">
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class="" style="font-size:10pt;
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class="">Prof. Randy J. LaPolla, PhD FAHA</b> （羅</span><span
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<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 11 Jun 2016, at 3:33 pm, David Gil <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de"
class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a></a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">Luigi,<br class="">
<br class="">
Unlike many of my typologist colleagues who seek refuge
from the muddy waters of formal criteria in the supposed
clarity of semantics, I find semantic criteria to often
be just as problematical, if not more so, than their
formal counterparts.<br class="">
<br class="">
For the purposes of my WALS map, I did not use
headedness as a defining criteria, and I would not wish
to take a stand on the headedness in the examples that
you discuss. By "adjective" I meant property-denoting
word one of whose typical functions is as an attribute
of a noun, and by "noun" I meant thing-denoting word.
The map shows the morphosyntactic strategies that a
language uses to allow an adjective to occur in a noun
slot — typically, but not criterially, heading a phrase
that occurs in an argument position. This definition is
met, among others, by the <i class="">one</i> in
English <i class="">
beautiful one</i>, the <i class="">de</i> in Mandarin
<i class="">hong de</i>, and also by the lack of
(dedicated adjective-to-noun conversion) marking in the
Italian
<i class="">il bello</i>.<br class="">
<br class="">
Best,<br class="">
<br class="">
David<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/06/2016 23:01, Luigi
Talamo wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">Dear all,</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">thanks a lot for your all answers, I
really appreciate that.</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">I have found your data very
interesting, many comments will follow :-)</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">I begin below with David's answer.</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex; border-left-width:1px;
border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);
border-left-style:solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">One of
the two kinds of nominalization mentioned
in the query ('beautiful' > 'beautiful
one') is the subject of my WALS map #61
"Adjectives without Nouns".<br class="">
<br class="">
David</font></div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks David, I have
read your WALS map at the beginning of my
work; maybe you remember that we have
exchanged a couple of e-mails some time ago.
As you mention in the WALS article, the most
important issue here is whether adjectives
are syntactic heads in constructions such as
'the white one', which translates in Italian
as 'quello bianco'. As you probably noticed,
I did not consider these constructions in my
study, as they appear to me to be more
'predicative' than 'referential', at least
in Italian; moreover, the syntactic head of
the Italian construction is most likely the
deictic quello 'this'. But what about the
Mandarin example that is reported in your
map, Wǒ yào hóng de. ? Is </font><span
class=""
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">hóng
a property concept with referential function
?</span></div>
<div class=""><span class=""
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br
class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span class=""
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Thanks</span></div>
<div class=""><span class=""
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br
class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span class=""
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Luigi</span></div>
<div class=""><span class=""
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br
class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex; border-left-width:1px;
border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);
border-left-style:solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"><br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</font>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">On
09/06/2016 21:14, Luigi Talamo
wrote:<br class="">
</font></div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">Dear all,</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">I am conducting a
research on the lexical
nominalisation of property
concepts in contemporary
Italian. My study involves two
types of nominalisation
strategy, affixation such as
bello `beautiful' ->
bell-ezza `beauty (abstract
concept)' and zero-marking
('conversion'), such as bello
(adj) -> `(il) bello' ->
`the beautiful person', `beauty
(abstract concept)' and `what is
beautiful about something'. </font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">Drawing mostly from
'Leipzig Questionnaire On
Nominalisation and mixed
Categories' (Malchukov et alii
(2008)) and studies on
adjectival and mixed categories,
I have elaborated a series of
morpho-syntactic and semantic
parameters, which I have
employed to study de-adjectival
nominalizations in actual,
corpus-based contexts.</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">I would like to
insert in my study some
cross-linguistic notes on the
phenomenon, which I hope to
further study from a typological
perspective. I will be glad if
you can provide me some examples
from your languages of
expertise. I have found some
examples of de-adjectival
nominalizations here and there
in grammars, but I was not able
to exactly figure out which are
the parameters involved;
moreover, some recent works
(among others, Roy (2010),
Alexiadou et alii (2010),
Alexiadou & Iordachioaia
(2014)) give interesting
insights on de-adjectival
nominalization, but examples are
limited to European languages.</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">I am particularly
interested in non-European
languages showing a distinct
class of adjectives;
morpho-syntatic parameters
include case, number, gender,
definiteness and specificity,
degree, external argument
structure and, possibly, verbal
parameters, which are however
not very significant for Italian
de-adjectival nominalisation;
semantic parameters include
referent animacy, the
distinction between the
nominalisation of the adjectival
'argument' vs. the
nominalisation of the adjective
itself e.g., softie `a thing
which is soft' vs. softness and
the semantic type of property
concepts e.g., PHYSICAL PROPERTY
or HUMAN PROPENSITY.<br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">So, possible
questions are as following:</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">1. Can property
concepts be turned into nouns?</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">2. Which strategies
are employed for this purpose?</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">3. Which parameters
do de-adjectival nouns display?</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">4. Are there any
missing values for a given
parameter? For instance,
de-adjectival nouns can be only
singular or definite or
restricted to the subject
position.</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">5. Are de-adjectival
nouns found in both semantic
types of nominalization? For
instance, I have observed that
European languages focus on the
nominalisation of the adjective
itself, while argument
nominalizations are scarcely
attested, limited to certain
language varieties and not
stable in the lexicon.</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">(needless to say,
questions 2 to 4 can have
multiple answers, helping to
describe different patterns of
property nominalisation)<br
class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">Thanks in advance
for your help, all the best.</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">Luigi</font></div>
<font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"><br
class="" clear="all">
</font>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">-- <br
class="">
</font>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">PhD Program in
Linguistics ('Scienze
Linguistiche')<br class="">
University of Bergamo and
University of Pavia - Italy</font></div>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
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