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Yes, David is exactly right.<br>
<br>
It is rue that many people would say that English "one" is a
substantivizer (allowing attributive modifiers to occur without an
overt noun), while Mandarin "de" is an attributivizer (allowing
nominals and clauses as well as many adjectives to occur as
modifiers).<br>
<br>
But English "one" is not obligatory on all nominal modifiers that
occur without a noun (e.g. one can say "I like Lee's paper better
than Kim's Ø", or "She bought five apples and I bought three Ø"),
and Mandarin "de" is not obligatory on all attributive nominal
modifiers (one can say "hóng huā" for 'red flower'). So the
language-particular facts are more complex and not reducible to the
"substantivizer" (or pro-form) / "attributivizer" (or relativizer)
contrast.<br>
<br>
What's crucial for David's map is that the attributivizer is
obligatory in a pro-form context ('the red one' must be "hóng de",
and cannot be "hóng"), thus being a sort of pro-form itself, at
least in this context.<br>
<br>
I think it would be perfectly reasonable to ask whether languages
have a dedicated substantivizer in nounless adjectival
constructions, i.e. a form that never occurs in attributive
constructions, like English "one", or Lezgian "-di". This would be a
different question, a bit more difficult to answer (because it
requires negative information), but every bit as interesting as
David's question.<br>
<br>
This discussion nicely illustrates the fact that typologists can
come up with diverse comparative concepts, none of which need to
match a descriptive category closely, and all of which are
meaningful and potentially interesting.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12.06.16 07:36, David Gil wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:575CF4F1.2020100@shh.mpg.de" type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
Randy,<br>
<br>
Yes, my chapter in WALS characterizes the English and Mandarin
constructions as "of the same type structurally", and yes, the two
constructions are different from each other in precisely the ways
that you describe!<br>
<br>
That's what typology does: dividing things into classes according
to one set of criteria, thereby putting in to the same class
things that are very different according to other sets of
criteria. And that's precisely what has happened here. My WALS
chapter asks whether an adjective can occur on its own as a noun,
without any further morphosyntactic marking and the answer for
both English and Mandarin is the same: no. It then further asks,
for languages that require such morphosyntactic marking, what the
formal properties of the marking is, distinguishing between
affixes and separate words, and between forms that occur before
and after their host adjective. And once again, Mandarin and
English come out the same, with a separate word that occurs after
its host adjective. That's all the WALS chapter purports to say.<br>
<br>
Now clearly many constructions in different languages with the
same WALS feature values will differ from each other in myriad
other ways, as is the case for English and Mandarin here. You may
feel that the typology proposed in the "Adjectives without Nouns"
WALS map overlooks what's "most important" about the constructions
in question, and you could indeed be right about that. I suspect,
however, that an alternative "Adjective without Nouns" map
distinguishing between "English and Mandarin types" on the basis
of headedness would have been impractical to produce, since it is
too theory dependent, and hence it would not have been possible to
glean the necessary information from available grammatical
descriptions of a sufficiently large sample of languages. (In
fact, while I agree entirely with your description of the
difference between English and Mandarin, I bet that there are even
grammatical descriptions of English and Mandarin out there that
would see things differently.)<br>
<br>
I hope this clarifies matters ...<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/06/2016 08:20, Randy John
LaPolla (Prof) wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:D1881E39-6853-4865-8B0A-556FF68E02DF@ntu.edu.sg"
type="cite"> Hi David,
<div class="">It seems from your message here and from your
chapter in WALS that the English construction with <i
class="">one</i> and the Chinese construction with <i
class="">de </i>are of the same type structurally. I don’t
know if I have read you right, but although they are made up
of the word representing a property concept followed by
another word, the two constructions are quite different (and
the natures of all of the words involved are different as
well). In the relevant use of English <i class="">one</i>, it
is a pro-form (see <span class="" style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">
Goldberg, Adele E. & Laura A. Michaelis. 2016. One among
many: anaphoric <i class=""> one</i> and its relationship
to numeral <i class="">one</i>. </span><span class=""
style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New
Roman""><i class="">Cognitive Science</i> 40.4:1–26.
DOI: 10.1111/cogs.12339</span> for interesting discussion)
and clearly the head of the phrase, but in the Chinese example
<i class="">de</i> is only a nominalizer and clearly not the
head of the phrase, either in terms of structural behaviour
(e.g. in English <i class="">one</i> patterns like other
heads, e.g. we can say “this one”, but this is not the case
with Chinese <i class="">de</i>) or in terms of speakers’
“feel” for what is the core element of the phrase.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">This sort of goes back to the discussion on
categorization we had back in January.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">All the best,</div>
<div class="">Randy</div>
<div class="">
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<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 11 Jun 2016, at 3:33 pm, David Gil <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">Luigi,<br class="">
<br class="">
Unlike many of my typologist colleagues who seek
refuge from the muddy waters of formal criteria in the
supposed clarity of semantics, I find semantic
criteria to often be just as problematical, if not
more so, than their formal counterparts.<br class="">
<br class="">
For the purposes of my WALS map, I did not use
headedness as a defining criteria, and I would not
wish to take a stand on the headedness in the examples
that you discuss. By "adjective" I meant
property-denoting word one of whose typical functions
is as an attribute of a noun, and by "noun" I meant
thing-denoting word. The map shows the
morphosyntactic strategies that a language uses to
allow an adjective to occur in a noun slot —
typically, but not criterially, heading a phrase that
occurs in an argument position. This definition is
met, among others, by the <i class="">one</i> in
English <i class=""> beautiful one</i>, the <i
class="">de</i> in Mandarin <i class="">hong de</i>,
and also by the lack of (dedicated adjective-to-noun
conversion) marking in the Italian <i class="">il
bello</i>.<br class="">
<br class="">
Best,<br class="">
<br class="">
David<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/06/2016 23:01,
Luigi Talamo wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">Dear all,</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">thanks a lot for your
all answers, I really appreciate that.</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">I have found your data
very interesting, many comments will follow
:-)</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">I begin below with
David's answer.</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;
border-left-width:1px;
border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);
border-left-style:solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><font
class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">One of the two kinds of
nominalization mentioned in the query
('beautiful' > 'beautiful one') is
the subject of my WALS map #61
"Adjectives without Nouns".<br class="">
<br class="">
David</font></div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks David, I
have read your WALS map at the beginning
of my work; maybe you remember that we
have exchanged a couple of e-mails some
time ago. As you mention in the WALS
article, the most important issue here is
whether adjectives are syntactic heads in
constructions such as 'the white one',
which translates in Italian as 'quello
bianco'. As you probably noticed, I did
not consider these constructions in my
study, as they appear to me to be more
'predicative' than 'referential', at least
in Italian; moreover, the syntactic head
of the Italian construction is most likely
the deictic quello 'this'. But what about
the Mandarin example that is reported in
your map, Wǒ yào hóng de. ? Is </font><span
class=""
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">hóng
a property concept with referential
function ?</span></div>
<div class=""><span class=""
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br
class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span class=""
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Thanks</span></div>
<div class=""><span class=""
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br
class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span class=""
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Luigi</span></div>
<div class=""><span class=""
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br
class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;
border-left-width:1px;
border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);
border-left-style:solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</font>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">On 09/06/2016 21:14,
Luigi Talamo wrote:<br class="">
</font></div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">Dear all,</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">I am conducting a
research on the lexical
nominalisation of property
concepts in contemporary
Italian. My study involves two
types of nominalisation
strategy, affixation such as
bello `beautiful' ->
bell-ezza `beauty (abstract
concept)' and zero-marking
('conversion'), such as bello
(adj) -> `(il) bello' ->
`the beautiful person',
`beauty (abstract concept)'
and `what is beautiful about
something'. </font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">Drawing mostly
from 'Leipzig Questionnaire On
Nominalisation and mixed
Categories' (Malchukov et alii
(2008)) and studies on
adjectival and mixed
categories, I have elaborated
a series of morpho-syntactic
and semantic parameters, which
I have employed to study
de-adjectival nominalizations
in actual, corpus-based
contexts.</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">I would like to
insert in my study some
cross-linguistic notes on the
phenomenon, which I hope to
further study from a
typological perspective. I
will be glad if you can
provide me some examples from
your languages of expertise. I
have found some examples of
de-adjectival nominalizations
here and there in grammars,
but I was not able to exactly
figure out which are the
parameters involved; moreover,
some recent works (among
others, Roy (2010), Alexiadou
et alii (2010), Alexiadou
& Iordachioaia (2014))
give interesting insights on
de-adjectival nominalization,
but examples are limited to
European languages.</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">I am particularly
interested in non-European
languages showing a distinct
class of adjectives;
morpho-syntatic parameters
include case, number, gender,
definiteness and specificity,
degree, external argument
structure and, possibly,
verbal parameters, which are
however not very significant
for Italian de-adjectival
nominalisation; semantic
parameters include referent
animacy, the distinction
between the nominalisation of
the adjectival 'argument' vs.
the nominalisation of the
adjective itself e.g., softie
`a thing which is soft' vs.
softness and the semantic type
of property concepts e.g.,
PHYSICAL PROPERTY or HUMAN
PROPENSITY.<br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">So, possible
questions are as following:</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">1. Can property
concepts be turned into nouns?</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">2. Which
strategies are employed for
this purpose?</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">3. Which
parameters do de-adjectival
nouns display?</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">4. Are there any
missing values for a given
parameter? For instance,
de-adjectival nouns can be
only singular or definite or
restricted to the subject
position.</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">5. Are
de-adjectival nouns found in
both semantic types of
nominalization? For instance,
I have observed that European
languages focus on the
nominalisation of the
adjective itself, while
argument nominalizations are
scarcely attested, limited to
certain language varieties and
not stable in the lexicon.</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">(needless to say,
questions 2 to 4 can have
multiple answers, helping to
describe different patterns of
property nominalisation)<br
class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">Thanks in advance
for your help, all the best.</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">Luigi</font></div>
<font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"><br
class="" clear="all">
</font>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">-- <br
class="">
</font>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">PhD Program in
Linguistics ('Scienze
Linguistiche')<br class="">
University of Bergamo and
University of Pavia - Italy</font></div>
</div>
<font class="" face="arial,
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class="">
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IPF 141199
Nikolaistrasse 6-10
D-04109 Leipzig
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