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Hi Martin,
<div class="">I just replied to David, but I just want to add that the point you bring up about the fact that English
<i class="">one</i> is not obligatory isn’t relevant here. My point is not that it is a substantivizer, but a pro-form that can be used alone, and so is clearly the head of the construction, and that for me is a big difference from Mandarin
<i class="">de</i>, which cannot be used alone and is clearly not a pro-form and clearly not the head. Calling
<i class="">de</i> a pro-form is simply wrong, both factually and logically. That is the issue we are discussing. </div>
<div class="">Factually, saying it is a pro-form does not fit its distribution at all. As someone who argues for a strictly inductive approach to language description, I would think you would be the first to say we should not impose categories on a construction
or form just to fit our theory. Logically, saying that it is a pro-form because it is used in contexts where English pro-forms are used is like saying that rockets are wing-powered entities because they can fly like wing-powered creatures. It also does nothing
for us to do so.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">All the best,</div>
<div class="">Randy</div>
<div class="">
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<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 12 Jun 2016, at 9:51 pm, Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" class="">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">Yes, David is exactly right.<br class="">
<br class="">
It is rue that many people would say that English "one" is a substantivizer (allowing attributive modifiers to occur without an overt noun), while Mandarin "de" is an attributivizer (allowing nominals and clauses as well as many adjectives to occur as modifiers).<br class="">
<br class="">
But English "one" is not obligatory on all nominal modifiers that occur without a noun (e.g. one can say "I like Lee's paper better than Kim's Ø", or "She bought five apples and I bought three Ø"), and Mandarin "de" is not obligatory on all attributive nominal
modifiers (one can say "hóng huā" for 'red flower'). So the language-particular facts are more complex and not reducible to the "substantivizer" (or pro-form) / "attributivizer" (or relativizer) contrast.<br class="">
<br class="">
What's crucial for David's map is that the attributivizer is obligatory in a pro-form context ('the red one' must be "hóng de", and cannot be "hóng"), thus being a sort of pro-form itself, at least in this context.<br class="">
<br class="">
I think it would be perfectly reasonable to ask whether languages have a dedicated substantivizer in nounless adjectival constructions, i.e. a form that never occurs in attributive constructions, like English "one", or Lezgian "-di". This would be a different
question, a bit more difficult to answer (because it requires negative information), but every bit as interesting as David's question.<br class="">
<br class="">
This discussion nicely illustrates the fact that typologists can come up with diverse comparative concepts, none of which need to match a descriptive category closely, and all of which are meaningful and potentially interesting.<br class="">
<br class="">
Best,<br class="">
Martin<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12.06.16 07:36, David Gil wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:575CF4F1.2020100@shh.mpg.de" type="cite" class="">Randy,<br class="">
<br class="">
Yes, my chapter in WALS characterizes the English and Mandarin constructions as "of the same type structurally", and yes, the two constructions are different from each other in precisely the ways that you describe!<br class="">
<br class="">
That's what typology does: dividing things into classes according to one set of criteria, thereby putting in to the same class things that are very different according to other sets of criteria. And that's precisely what has happened here. My WALS chapter
asks whether an adjective can occur on its own as a noun, without any further morphosyntactic marking and the answer for both English and Mandarin is the same: no. It then further asks, for languages that require such morphosyntactic marking, what the formal
properties of the marking is, distinguishing between affixes and separate words, and between forms that occur before and after their host adjective. And once again, Mandarin and English come out the same, with a separate word that occurs after its host adjective.
That's all the WALS chapter purports to say.<br class="">
<br class="">
Now clearly many constructions in different languages with the same WALS feature values will differ from each other in myriad other ways, as is the case for English and Mandarin here. You may feel that the typology proposed in the "Adjectives without Nouns"
WALS map overlooks what's "most important" about the constructions in question, and you could indeed be right about that. I suspect, however, that an alternative "Adjective without Nouns" map distinguishing between "English and Mandarin types" on the basis
of headedness would have been impractical to produce, since it is too theory dependent, and hence it would not have been possible to glean the necessary information from available grammatical descriptions of a sufficiently large sample of languages. (In fact,
while I agree entirely with your description of the difference between English and Mandarin, I bet that there are even grammatical descriptions of English and Mandarin out there that would see things differently.)<br class="">
<br class="">
I hope this clarifies matters ...<br class="">
<br class="">
David<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/06/2016 08:20, Randy John LaPolla (Prof) wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:D1881E39-6853-4865-8B0A-556FF68E02DF@ntu.edu.sg" type="cite" class="">
Hi David,
<div class="">It seems from your message here and from your chapter in WALS that the English construction with
<i class="">one</i> and the Chinese construction with <i class="">de </i>are of the same type structurally. I don’t know if I have read you right, but although they are made up of the word representing a property concept followed by another word, the two constructions
are quite different (and the natures of all of the words involved are different as well). In the relevant use of English
<i class="">one</i>, it is a pro-form (see <span class="" style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">
Goldberg, Adele E. & Laura A. Michaelis. 2016. One among many: anaphoric <i class="">
one</i> and its relationship to numeral <i class="">one</i>. </span><span class="" style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New
Roman""><i class="">Cognitive Science</i> 40.4:1–26. DOI: 10.1111/cogs.12339</span> for interesting discussion)
and clearly the head of the phrase, but in the Chinese example <i class="">de</i> is only a nominalizer and clearly not the head of the phrase, either in terms of structural behaviour (e.g. in English
<i class="">one</i> patterns like other heads, e.g. we can say “this one”, but this is not the case with Chinese
<i class="">de</i>) or in terms of speakers’ “feel” for what is the core element of the phrase.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">This sort of goes back to the discussion on categorization we had back in January.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">All the best,</div>
<div class="">Randy</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
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<div class="" style="word-wrap:break-word"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt;
font-family:Arial,sans-serif;
color:rgb(34,34,34);
background-color:white"><b class="">Prof.
Randy J. LaPolla, PhD FAHA</b> （羅</span><span class="" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);
background-color:white; font-size:13px"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Song">仁地</font></span><span class="" style="font-size:10pt;
font-family:Arial,sans-serif;
color:rgb(34,34,34);
background-color:white">）|
Division of Linguistics and Multilingual Studies | Nanyang Technological University</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
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<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 11 Jun 2016, at 3:33 pm, David Gil <<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">Luigi,<br class="">
<br class="">
Unlike many of my typologist colleagues who seek refuge from the muddy waters of formal criteria in the supposed clarity of semantics, I find semantic criteria to often be just as problematical, if not more so, than their formal counterparts.<br class="">
<br class="">
For the purposes of my WALS map, I did not use headedness as a defining criteria, and I would not wish to take a stand on the headedness in the examples that you discuss. By "adjective" I meant property-denoting word one of whose typical functions is as an
attribute of a noun, and by "noun" I meant thing-denoting word. The map shows the morphosyntactic strategies that a language uses to allow an adjective to occur in a noun slot — typically, but not criterially, heading a phrase that occurs in an argument position.
This definition is met, among others, by the <i class="">one</i> in English <i class="">
beautiful one</i>, the <i class="">de</i> in Mandarin <i class="">hong de</i>, and also by the lack of (dedicated adjective-to-noun conversion) marking in the Italian
<i class="">il bello</i>.<br class="">
<br class="">
Best,<br class="">
<br class="">
David<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/06/2016 23:01, Luigi Talamo wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">Dear all,</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">thanks a lot for your all answers, I really appreciate that.</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">I have found your data very interesting, many comments will follow :-)</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">I begin below with David's answer.</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;
border-left-width:1px;
border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);
border-left-style:solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">One of the two kinds of nominalization mentioned in the query ('beautiful' > 'beautiful one') is the subject of my WALS map #61 "Adjectives without
Nouns".<br class="">
<br class="">
David</font></div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks David, I have read your WALS map at the beginning of my work; maybe you remember that we have exchanged a couple of e-mails some time ago. As you mention
in the WALS article, the most important issue here is whether adjectives are syntactic heads in constructions such as 'the white one', which translates in Italian as 'quello bianco'. As you probably noticed, I did not consider these constructions in my study,
as they appear to me to be more 'predicative' than 'referential', at least in Italian; moreover, the syntactic head of the Italian construction is most likely the deictic quello 'this'. But what about the Mandarin example that is reported in your map, Wǒ
yào hóng de. ? Is </font><span class="" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">hóng a property concept with referential function ?</span></div>
<div class=""><span class="" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span class="" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Thanks</span></div>
<div class=""><span class="" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span class="" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Luigi</span></div>
<div class=""><span class="" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;
border-left-width:1px;
border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);
border-left-style:solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</font>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">On 09/06/2016 21:14, Luigi Talamo wrote:<br class="">
</font></div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">Dear all,</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">I am conducting a research on the lexical nominalisation of property concepts in contemporary Italian. My study involves two types of nominalisation
strategy, affixation such as bello `beautiful' -> bell-ezza `beauty (abstract concept)' and zero-marking ('conversion'), such as bello (adj) -> `(il) bello' -> `the beautiful person', `beauty (abstract concept)' and `what is beautiful about something'. </font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">Drawing mostly from 'Leipzig Questionnaire On Nominalisation and mixed Categories' (Malchukov et alii (2008)) and studies on adjectival and mixed categories,
I have elaborated a series of morpho-syntactic and semantic parameters, which I have employed to study de-adjectival nominalizations in actual, corpus-based contexts.</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">I would like to insert in my study some cross-linguistic notes on the phenomenon, which I hope to further study from a typological perspective. I will
be glad if you can provide me some examples from your languages of expertise. I have found some examples of de-adjectival nominalizations here and there in grammars, but I was not able to exactly figure out which are the parameters involved; moreover, some
recent works (among others, Roy (2010), Alexiadou et alii (2010), Alexiadou & Iordachioaia (2014)) give interesting insights on de-adjectival nominalization, but examples are limited to European languages.</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">I am particularly interested in non-European languages showing a distinct class of adjectives; morpho-syntatic parameters include case, number, gender,
definiteness and specificity, degree, external argument structure and, possibly, verbal parameters, which are however not very significant for Italian de-adjectival nominalisation; semantic parameters include referent animacy, the distinction between the nominalisation
of the adjectival 'argument' vs. the nominalisation of the adjective itself e.g., softie `a thing which is soft' vs. softness and the semantic type of property concepts e.g., PHYSICAL PROPERTY or HUMAN PROPENSITY.<br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">So, possible questions are as following:</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">1. Can property concepts be turned into nouns?</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">2. Which strategies are employed for this purpose?</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">3. Which parameters do de-adjectival nouns display?</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">4. Are there any missing values for a given parameter? For instance, de-adjectival nouns can be only singular or definite or restricted to the subject
position.</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">5. Are de-adjectival nouns found in both semantic types of nominalization? For instance, I have observed that European languages focus on the nominalisation
of the adjective itself, while argument nominalizations are scarcely attested, limited to certain language varieties and not stable in the lexicon.</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">(needless to say, questions 2 to 4 can have multiple answers, helping to describe different patterns of property nominalisation)<br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">Thanks in advance for your help, all the best.</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">Luigi</font></div>
<font class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"><br class="" clear="all">
</font>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
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helvetica, sans-serif">--
<br class="">
</font>
<div class=""><font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">PhD Program in Linguistics ('Scienze Linguistiche')<br class="">
University of Bergamo and University of Pavia - Italy</font></div>
</div>
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helvetica, sans-serif"><br class="">
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Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): +49-3641686834
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-82238009215
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): +49-3641686834
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-82238009215
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
IPF 141199
Nikolaistrasse 6-10
D-04109 Leipzig
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