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Randy,<br>
<br>
Thanks for your comments. Two points:<br>
<br>
With regard to whether Mandarin <i>de</i> is a separate word or
not, your criticism is well-taken; my only defense is that that is
the way it is usually characterized, and that in a typological
survey of this scope, there is no other way of doing things other
than to rely on extant descriptions. Except perhaps to sidestep the
issue of wordhood altogether and simply collapse "affix" and
"separate word" into a single type, which, I suspect, is what would
do now if I were doing the chapter all over again.<br>
<br>
But I really don't see your point when you write: "I still don’t see
what lumping together language forms that aren’t similar into
categories that make them look similar does for us." Surely this is
the only way for rational inquiry into language (or any other
phenomenological domain) to proceed. "Similar" and "not similar"
aren't binary holistic choices, they only have meaning in the
context of particular criteria or properties. We observe two
entities, call them A and B, and then say Hey, A and B are alike <b>with
respect to</b> property X. The value of saying this depends on
how trivial or insightful the property X turns out to be, ie. what
further understandings X leads us towards. But crucially, the value
of X is not negated by pointing to properties Y, Z, W, V etc, with
respect to which A and B differ. The existence of such properties
with respect to which A and B differ is totally irrelevant to the
value of property X, they do not impinge on it in any way.<br>
<br>
You ask "what has lumping Mandarin and English together in this
context taught us about the languages?". Well one of the things
I've always been interested in is cross-linguistic variation with
respect to parts-of-speech inventories. The present WALS map
addresses the issue of whether a language distinguishes between
adjectives and nouns. (Note: I'm saying "addresses", not
"answers".) Specifically, if a language, like English or Mandarin,
needs to add a grammatical marker to an adjective in order to give
it the distributional properties of a noun, then this provides good
reason to suspect that in such languages, adjectives and nouns
constitute different word classes, defined distributionally.
Whereas if a language, like Italian or Hebrew, doesn't need to make
use of such a marker, then perhaps it doesn't distinguish between
adjectives and nouns (as indeed is suggested by the traditional term
"substantives" that groups the two classes together), though
alternatively it could be the case that the language in question
does distinguish between adjectives and nouns using other criteria.<br>
<br>
So all this is relevant to English and Mandarin, regardless of the
myriad other important differences between English <i>one</i> and
Mandarin <i>de.<br>
<br>
</i>Best,<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 13/06/2016 17:44, Randy John LaPolla
(Prof) wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:2CA5083C-7A86-4DA4-A03D-C9798D9B8DB5@ntu.edu.sg"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
Hi David,
<div class="">Thanks for your reply. The crux may be the
definition of Mandarin <i class="">
de</i> as a word (you don’t specify phonological word or
grammatical word, but since you treat clitics—grammatical words
that aren’t phonological words—differently, I am assuming you
mean phonological word). It cannot appear on its own, and when
added to another word, like <i class="">hong</i>, they are
pronounced together, so it patterns like a clitic, and so is
unlike English
<i class="">one</i> in that way as well (people are often thrown
off by the fact that in Chinese each character is written
separately, but that doesn’t mean each character is a
phonological word). </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">And although I don’t want to start the whole debate
we had in January again, I still don’t see what lumping together
language forms that aren’t similar into categories that make
them look similar does for us. Although I can see the practical
difficulties of taking the actual facts of all the languages
seriously, very concretely, what has lumping Mandarin and
English together in this context taught us about the languages?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thanks very much.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">All the best,</div>
<div class="">Randy</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 12 Jun 2016, at 1:36 pm, David Gil <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de"
class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a></a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class="">Randy,<br
class="">
<br class="">
Yes, my chapter in WALS characterizes the English and
Mandarin constructions as "of the same type
structurally", and yes, the two constructions are
different from each other in precisely the ways that you
describe!<br class="">
<br class="">
That's what typology does: dividing things into classes
according to one set of criteria, thereby putting in to
the same class things that are very different according
to other sets of criteria. And that's precisely what
has happened here. My WALS chapter asks whether an
adjective can occur on its own as a noun, without any
further morphosyntactic marking and the answer for both
English and Mandarin is the same: no. It then further
asks, for languages that require such morphosyntactic
marking, what the formal properties of the marking is,
distinguishing between affixes and separate words, and
between forms that occur before and after their host
adjective. And once again, Mandarin and English come
out the same, with a separate word that occurs after its
host adjective. That's all the WALS chapter purports to
say.<br class="">
<br class="">
Now clearly many constructions in different languages
with the same WALS feature values will differ from each
other in myriad other ways, as is the case for English
and Mandarin here. You may feel that the typology
proposed in the "Adjectives without Nouns" WALS map
overlooks what's "most important" about the
constructions in question, and you could indeed be right
about that. I suspect, however, that an alternative
"Adjective without Nouns" map distinguishing between
"English and Mandarin types" on the basis of headedness
would have been impractical to produce, since it is too
theory dependent, and hence it would not have been
possible to glean the necessary information from
available grammatical descriptions of a sufficiently
large sample of languages. (In fact, while I agree
entirely with your description of the difference between
English and Mandarin, I bet that there are even
grammatical descriptions of English and Mandarin out
there that would see things differently.)<br class="">
<br class="">
I hope this clarifies matters ...<br class="">
<br class="">
David<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/06/2016 08:20, Randy
John LaPolla (Prof) wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:D1881E39-6853-4865-8B0A-556FF68E02DF@ntu.edu.sg"
type="cite" class="">
Hi David,
<div class="">It seems from your message here and from
your chapter in WALS that the English construction
with
<i class="">one</i> and the Chinese construction
with <i class="">de </i>are of the same type
structurally. I don’t know if I have read you right,
but although they are made up of the word
representing a property concept followed by another
word, the two constructions are quite different (and
the natures of all of the words involved are
different as well). In the relevant use of English
<i class="">one</i>, it is a pro-form (see <span
class="" style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman""
lang="EN-US">
Goldberg, Adele E. & Laura A. Michaelis. 2016.
One among many: anaphoric <i class="">
one</i> and its relationship to numeral <i
class="">one</i>. </span><span class=""
style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times
New Roman""><i class="">Cognitive Science</i>
40.4:1–26. DOI: 10.1111/cogs.12339</span> for
interesting discussion) and clearly the head of the
phrase, but in the Chinese example <i class="">de</i>
is only a nominalizer and clearly not the head of
the phrase, either in terms of structural behaviour
(e.g. in English
<i class="">one</i> patterns like other heads, e.g.
we can say “this one”, but this is not the case with
Chinese
<i class="">de</i>) or in terms of speakers’ “feel”
for what is the core element of the phrase.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">This sort of goes back to the discussion
on categorization we had back in January.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">All the best,</div>
<div class="">Randy</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="" style="letter-spacing: normal;
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class="" style="font-size:10pt;
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background-color:white"><b
class="">Prof. Randy J.
LaPolla, PhD FAHA</b> （羅</span><span
class=""
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class="Apple-style-span"
face="Song">仁地</font></span><span
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<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 11 Jun 2016, at 3:33 pm, David
Gil <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">Luigi,<br
class="">
<br class="">
Unlike many of my typologist colleagues who
seek refuge from the muddy waters of formal
criteria in the supposed clarity of
semantics, I find semantic criteria to often
be just as problematical, if not more so,
than their formal counterparts.<br class="">
<br class="">
For the purposes of my WALS map, I did not
use headedness as a defining criteria, and I
would not wish to take a stand on the
headedness in the examples that you
discuss. By "adjective" I meant
property-denoting word one of whose typical
functions is as an attribute of a noun, and
by "noun" I meant thing-denoting word. The
map shows the morphosyntactic strategies
that a language uses to allow an adjective
to occur in a noun slot — typically, but not
criterially, heading a phrase that occurs in
an argument position. This definition is
met, among others, by the <i class="">one</i>
in English <i class="">
beautiful one</i>, the <i class="">de</i>
in Mandarin <i class="">hong de</i>, and
also by the lack of (dedicated
adjective-to-noun conversion) marking in the
Italian
<i class="">il bello</i>.<br class="">
<br class="">
Best,<br class="">
<br class="">
David<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/06/2016
23:01, Luigi Talamo wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Dear
all,</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">thanks
a lot for your all answers, I really
appreciate that.</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">I
have found your data very
interesting, many comments will
follow :-)</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">I
begin below with David's answer.</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br
class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;
border-left-width:1px;
border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);
border-left-style:solid;
padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><font
class="" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">One of
the two kinds of
nominalization mentioned in
the query ('beautiful' >
'beautiful one') is the
subject of my WALS map #61
"Adjectives without Nouns".<br
class="">
<br class="">
David</font></div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">Thanks David, I have
read your WALS map at the
beginning of my work; maybe you
remember that we have exchanged
a couple of e-mails some time
ago. As you mention in the WALS
article, the most important
issue here is whether adjectives
are syntactic heads in
constructions such as 'the white
one', which translates in
Italian as 'quello bianco'. As
you probably noticed, I did not
consider these constructions in
my study, as they appear to me
to be more 'predicative' than
'referential', at least in
Italian; moreover, the syntactic
head of the Italian construction
is most likely the deictic
quello 'this'. But what about
the Mandarin example that is
reported in your map, Wǒ yào
hóng de. ? Is </font><span
class=""
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">hóng
a property concept with
referential function ?</span></div>
<div class=""><span class=""
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br
class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span class=""
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Thanks</span></div>
<div class=""><span class=""
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br
class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span class=""
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Luigi</span></div>
<div class=""><span class=""
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br
class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;
border-left-width:1px;
border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);
border-left-style:solid;
padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</font>
<div class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">On
09/06/2016 21:14, Luigi
Talamo wrote:<br
class="">
</font></div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class=""><font
class=""
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">Dear
all,</font></div>
<div class=""><font
class=""
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">I am
conducting a
research on the
lexical
nominalisation of
property concepts in
contemporary
Italian. My study
involves two types
of nominalisation
strategy, affixation
such as bello
`beautiful' ->
bell-ezza `beauty
(abstract concept)'
and zero-marking
('conversion'), such
as bello (adj) ->
`(il) bello' ->
`the beautiful
person', `beauty
(abstract concept)'
and `what is
beautiful about
something'. </font></div>
<div class=""><font
class=""
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">Drawing
mostly from 'Leipzig
Questionnaire On
Nominalisation and
mixed Categories'
(Malchukov et alii
(2008)) and studies
on adjectival and
mixed categories, I
have elaborated a
series of
morpho-syntactic and
semantic parameters,
which I have
employed to study
de-adjectival
nominalizations in
actual, corpus-based
contexts.</font></div>
<div class=""><font
class=""
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">I would
like to insert in my
study some
cross-linguistic
notes on the
phenomenon, which I
hope to further
study from a
typological
perspective. I will
be glad if you can
provide me some
examples from your
languages of
expertise. I have
found some examples
of de-adjectival
nominalizations here
and there in
grammars, but I was
not able to exactly
figure out which are
the parameters
involved; moreover,
some recent works
(among others, Roy
(2010), Alexiadou et
alii (2010),
Alexiadou &
Iordachioaia (2014))
give interesting
insights on
de-adjectival
nominalization, but
examples are limited
to European
languages.</font></div>
<div class=""><font
class=""
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif"><br
class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font
class=""
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">I am
particularly
interested in
non-European
languages showing a
distinct class of
adjectives;
morpho-syntatic
parameters include
case, number,
gender, definiteness
and specificity,
degree, external
argument structure
and, possibly,
verbal parameters,
which are however
not very significant
for Italian
de-adjectival
nominalisation;
semantic parameters
include referent
animacy, the
distinction between
the nominalisation
of the adjectival
'argument' vs. the
nominalisation of
the adjective itself
e.g., softie `a
thing which is soft'
vs. softness and the
semantic type of
property concepts
e.g., PHYSICAL
PROPERTY or HUMAN
PROPENSITY.<br
class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font
class=""
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif"><br
class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font
class=""
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">So,
possible questions
are as following:</font></div>
<div class=""><font
class=""
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">1. Can
property concepts be
turned into nouns?</font></div>
<div class=""><font
class=""
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">2. Which
strategies are
employed for this
purpose?</font></div>
<div class=""><font
class=""
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">3. Which
parameters do
de-adjectival nouns
display?</font></div>
<div class=""><font
class=""
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">4. Are
there any missing
values for a given
parameter? For
instance,
de-adjectival nouns
can be only singular
or definite or
restricted to the
subject position.</font></div>
<div class=""><font
class=""
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">5. Are
de-adjectival nouns
found in both
semantic types of
nominalization? For
instance, I have
observed that
European languages
focus on the
nominalisation of
the adjective
itself, while
argument
nominalizations are
scarcely attested,
limited to certain
language varieties
and not stable in
the lexicon.</font></div>
<div class=""><font
class=""
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif"><br
class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font
class=""
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">(needless
to say, questions 2
to 4 can have
multiple answers,
helping to describe
different patterns
of property
nominalisation)<br
class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font
class=""
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif"><br
class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font
class=""
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">Thanks
in advance for your
help, all the best.</font></div>
<div class=""><font
class=""
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif"><br
class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font
class=""
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">Luigi</font></div>
<font class=""
face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"><br
class="" clear="all">
</font>
<div class=""><font
class=""
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif"><br
class="">
</font></div>
<font class=""
face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">--
<br class="">
</font>
<div class=""><font
class=""
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">PhD
Program in
Linguistics
('Scienze
Linguistiche')<br
class="">
University of
Bergamo and
University of Pavia
- Italy</font></div>
</div>
<font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><br class="">
</font>
<fieldset class=""></fieldset>
<font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">
<br class="">
</font></div>
</div>
<span class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">
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</font></span></blockquote>
<span class=""><font class=""
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif" color="#888888"><br
class="">
<pre cols="72" class="">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
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<font class="" face="arial, helvetica,
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<div class=""><font class=""
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Linguistics ('Scienze
Linguistiche')<br class="">
University of Bergamo and
University of Pavia - Italy</font></div>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): +49-3641686834
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): +49-3641686834
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-82238009215
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): +49-3641686834
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-82238009215
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