<div dir="ltr">Dear David,<div><br></div><div>I don't know how many and what type of consultants you consulted about <span style="font-size:12.8px">examples that you offered of unmarked property words in argument position in Mandarin, but I think that the fact that they consistently rejected your examples is not a very valid argument to say that the examples were grammatically incorrect. In my experience, it happens all the time in fieldwork that native speakers reject example utterances during elicitation, even though they use them all the time in real, unchecked life; they are just not aware of it. Due to any number of reasons, when confronted with certain utterances, they reject them. For example, speakers may reject an utterance because it deviates from some kind of perceived standard, and that they feel that, in order to show their knowledge of the standard, they should reject them, especially when the person asking them is a very learned person. The point is that, in my opinion, elicitation alone should not be taken as the basis of a grammatical description. Elicitation should only be used as a tool to gain some deeper insight into the language after ample un-elicited, or spontaneous speech has been collected and analysed.</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Regards,</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Seino</span></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Dr. Seino van Breugel<br><a href="https://independent.academia.edu/SeinovanBreugel" target="_blank">https://independent.academia.edu/SeinovanBreugel</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHfiZwqyWC7HfZUAQ1RH1ew" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHfiZwqyWC7HfZUAQ1RH1ew</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 1:17 PM, David Gil <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    Randy,<br>
    <br>
    Thanks for the very nice presentation of textual examples involving
    the various combinations of <i>de</i> with the word for 'red'.  Of
    the examples that you cite, it is (2) which constitutes an apparent
    counterexample to my WALS-map classification of Mandarin as
    requiring a marker in order for a property-denoting word to occur in
    argument position.  Note, however, that in the given context, a
    similar construction is possible also for English: you could perhaps
    have translated (2) as 'See red before giving birth'.  Given the
    existence of constructions such as the latter translation, some have
    questioned my characterization of English in the same WALS map,
    arguing that adjectives can indeed occur in unmarked form in
    argument position in English too.  This is the typologist's
    predicament, and why typologists often get as much flack as they do
    from language specialists.  Sure, constructions such as these occur
    in English, however, they are significantly more constrained than in
    a language such as Italian, Hebrew, or Malay, in which they occur
    much more freely.  To do typology, you need to posit arbitrary
    cut-off points, and for better or worse, I chose to classify
    languages which allow unmarked adjectives to occur in limited
    contexts such as English as belonging to the same type as languages
    which do not allow them at all, rather than as belonging to the same
    type as languages that allow them freely.  In large part this was
    for practical reasons; I felt more confident in my ability to get
    the facts right using this cut-off point than the alternative one. 
    And indeed, your data from Mandarin vindicate my decision.  My
    Mandarin data was based on elicitation, and perhaps because I am not
    an expert in Mandarin, I did not encounter, and hence was not aware
    of, constructions such as that in (2).  Now if I had chosen a simple
    yes/no cut-off point, I would now, on the basis of your comments,
    have to amend my classification of Mandarin, and, much worse, I
    would be increasingly suspicious of my classification of many other
    languages in the sample.  However, given that my Mandarin
    consultants consistently rejected the examples that I offered them
    of unmarked property words in argument position, I remain confident
    that my classification of Mandarin in the WALS map is the correct
    one.<br>
    <br>
    Best,<br>
    <br>
    David<br>
    <br>
    <div>On 23/06/2016 16:55, Randy John LaPolla
      (Prof) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      Hi David,
      <div>Sorry to take so long to get back you. </div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Yes, it is fine to "observe two entities, call them
        A and B, and then say Hey, A and B are alike <b>with
          respect to</b> property X”, but my argument was that they are
        not alike in terms of property X. </div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>In terms of what you said about word classes, <i>de</i> is not required in Mandarin for an adjective
        (stative verb) or any other verb to be used as a referential
        phrase; as I argued in my paper arguing for a constructionalist
        approach to Chinese,* it is simply a matter of where it appears
        in the construction. In the case of adjectives, there is a
        difference in the use or not of <i>de</i> with the
        adjective: without it it would probably be more often used to
        refer to the quality as an entity, but with it it would probably
        be used to refer to an object with that quality. Below are five
        natural examples are each type. In 1 we have it without <i>de,</i> used to refer to a type of red. In 2, also
        without de, it refers to a red object, blood. In 3 it is used
        with de as a headless relative clause, referring to the hands.
        In 4, with de, it refers to the quality of being red. In 5, with
        de, it refers to the red ring of skin, which might also be seen
        as a headless relative.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);background-color:rgb(243,245,249)">1 中国红到底是什么红?</span><a href="http://daxianggonghui.baijia.baidu.com/article/49119" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://daxianggonghui.baijia.baidu.com/article/49119" target="_blank">http://daxianggonghui.baijia.baidu.com/article/49119</a></div>
      <div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);background-color:rgb(243,245,249)">Zhongguo hong
          daodi shi shenme hong </span></div>
      <div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);background-color:rgb(243,245,249)">China      
           red   afterall cop what red</span></div>
      <div><span style="background-color:rgb(243,245,249)"><font color="#333333">‘So what is China
            red?'</font></span></div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">2</span><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)"> 产前见红 </span><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)"><a href="http://www.yaolan.com/zhishi/chanqianjianhong/" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.yaolan.com/zhishi/chanqianjianhong/" target="_blank">http://www.yaolan.com/zhishi/chanqianjianhong/</a></span></div>
      <div>chan qian jian hong</div>
      <div>give.birth before see red</div>
      <div>‘See blood before giving birth’</div>
      <div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
        </span></div>
      <h3 style="margin:0px;padding:12px 0px 0px;color:rgb(34,34,34);line-height:32px;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:nowrap;overflow:hidden"> <font size="4"><span style="font-weight:normal">3 </span><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style="font-weight:normal">白的雪,青的葱,红红的是她的小手</span> </span><font color="#333333"><a href="http://tiku.21cnjy.com/quest/gzN2U__QMT4O.html" style="font-weight:normal" target="_blank">http://tiku.21cnjy.com/quest/gzN2U__QMT4O.html</a></font></font></h3>
      <div><font color="#333333"><br>
        </font></div>
      <div>bai-de xue, qing-de cong, hong-hong-de shi ta-de
        xiaoshou</div>
      <div>white-de snow, green-de scallion, red-red-de cop
        3sg-de small-hand</div>
      <div>‘White snow, green scallions, the red one is her
        small hand’</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>
        <h4 style="padding:0px;margin:0px 0.5em 0px 0px;word-break:break-all;border:0px;vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(51,51,51)"> <span style="font-weight:normal">4 </span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);line-height:32px;white-space:nowrap">关羽脸为什
            么是红的?</span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);line-height:32px;white-space:nowrap;font-weight:normal"> <a href="http://iask.sina.com.cn/b/10634327.html" target="_blank">http://iask.sina.com.cn/b/10634327.html</a></span></h4>
        <div><span style="font-weight:normal">Guan
            Yu lian weishenme shi hong-de</span></div>
        <div><span style="font-weight:normal">PN    
                face why           cop red-de</span></div>
        <div>‘Why is Guan Yu’s face red?'</div>
      </div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">5</span><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-weight:bold;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
          宝宝嘴巴周围一圈红红的是怎么回事? </span><font color="#333333"><a href="http://www.babytree.com/ask/detail/42954" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.babytree.com/ask/detail/42954" target="_blank">http://www.babytree.com/ask/detail/42954</a></font></div>
      <div><font color="#333333">Baobao zuiba zhouwei
          yi-quan hong-hong-de shi zenme hui shi?</font></div>
      <div><font color="#333333">baby     mouth around
           one-ring red-red-de     cop how    CL thing</font></div>
      <div><font color="#333333">‘What is the deal
          with the ring of redness around the baby’s mouth?’</font></div>
      <div><font face="Microsoft Yahei, Microsoft
          Jhenghei" color="#333333"><span style="font-size:20px"><br>
          </span></font></div>
      <div>*<span style="font-family:'Times New Roman';font-size:12pt;line-height:16pt;text-align:justify">LaPolla, Randy J. 2013.
          "Arguments for a construction-based approach to the analysis
          of Chinese". In </span><i>Human Language
          Resources and Linguistic Typology</i><span style="font-family:'Times New Roman';font-size:12pt;line-height:16pt;text-align:justify">, Papers
          from the Fourth International Conference on Sinology, edited
          by Tseng Chiu-yu, 33-57. Taiwan: Academia Sinica.</span></div>
      
      <div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;text-align:justify;line-height:16pt"> <span lang="EN-US"><span><a href="http://randylapolla.net/papers/LaPolla_2013_Arguments_for_a_construction-based_approach_to_the_analysis_of_Chinese.pdf" target="_blank">http://randylapolla.net/papers/LaPolla_2013_Arguments_for_a_construction-based_approach_to_the_analysis_of_Chinese.pdf</a></span></span><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></div>
      
      <div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>So for me there are no global word classes; we need to look
          at the propositional functions of the elements in the
          particular constructions in which they appear.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>All the best,</div>
        <div>Randy</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <div>On 13 Jun 2016, at 6:24 pm, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>
              wrote:</div>
            <br>
            <div>
              <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">Randy,<br>
                <br>
                Thanks for your comments.  Two points:<br>
                <br>
                With regard to whether Mandarin <i>de</i> is a
                separate word or not, your criticism is well-taken; my
                only defense is that that is the way it is usually
                characterized, and that in a typological survey of this
                scope, there is no other way of doing things other than
                to rely on extant descriptions.  Except perhaps to
                sidestep the issue of wordhood altogether and simply
                collapse "affix" and "separate word" into a single type,
                which, I suspect, is what would do now if I were doing
                the chapter all over again.<br>
                <br>
                But I really don't see your point when you write: "I
                still don’t see what lumping together language forms
                that aren’t similar into categories that make them look
                similar does for us."  Surely this is the only way for
                rational inquiry into language (or any other
                phenomenological domain) to proceed.  "Similar" and "not
                similar" aren't binary holistic choices, they only have
                meaning in the context of particular criteria or
                properties.  We observe two entities, call them A and B,
                and then say Hey, A and B are alike <b>with
                  respect to</b> property X.  The value of saying this
                depends on how trivial or insightful the property X
                turns out to be, ie. what further understandings X leads
                us towards.  But crucially, the value of X is not
                negated by pointing to properties Y, Z, W, V etc, with
                respect to which A and B differ.  The existence of such
                properties with respect to which A and B differ is
                totally irrelevant to the value of property X, they do
                not impinge on it in any way.<br>
                <br>
                You ask "what has lumping Mandarin and English together
                in this context taught us about the languages?".  Well
                one of the things I've always been interested in is
                cross-linguistic variation with respect to
                parts-of-speech inventories.  The present WALS map
                addresses the issue of whether a language distinguishes
                between adjectives and nouns.  (Note: I'm saying
                "addresses", not "answers".)  Specifically, if a
                language, like English or Mandarin, needs to add a
                grammatical marker to an adjective in order to give it
                the distributional properties of a noun, then this
                provides good reason to suspect that in such languages,
                adjectives and nouns constitute different word classes,
                defined distributionally.  Whereas if a language, like
                Italian or Hebrew, doesn't need to make use of such a
                marker, then perhaps it doesn't distinguish between
                adjectives and nouns (as indeed is suggested by the
                traditional term "substantives" that groups the two
                classes together), though alternatively it could be the
                case that the language in question does distinguish
                between adjectives and nouns using other criteria.<br>
                <br>
                So all this is relevant to English and Mandarin,
                regardless of the myriad other important differences
                between English <i>one</i> and Mandarin <i>de.<br>
                  <br>
                </i>Best,<br>
                <br>
                David<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <div>On 13/06/2016 17:44, Randy
                  John LaPolla (Prof) wrote:<br>
                </div>
                <blockquote type="cite"> Hi David,
                  <div>Thanks for your reply. The crux may be
                    the definition of Mandarin <i> de</i> as a
                    word (you don’t specify phonological word or
                    grammatical word, but since you treat
                    clitics—grammatical words that aren’t phonological
                    words—differently, I am assuming you mean
                    phonological word). It cannot appear on its own, and
                    when added to another word, like <i>hong</i>,
                    they are pronounced together, so it patterns like a
                    clitic, and so is unlike English <i>one</i>
                    in that way as well (people are often thrown off by
                    the fact that in Chinese each character is written
                    separately, but that doesn’t mean each character is
                    a phonological word). </div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>And although I don’t want to start the
                    whole debate we had in January again, I still don’t
                    see what lumping together language forms that aren’t
                    similar into categories that make them look similar
                    does for us. Although I can see the practical
                    difficulties of taking the actual facts of all the
                    languages seriously, very concretely, what has
                    lumping Mandarin and English together in this
                    context taught us about the languages?</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Thanks very much.</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>All the best,</div>
                  <div>Randy</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div><br>
                    <div>
                      <blockquote type="cite">
                        <div>On 12 Jun 2016, at 1:36 pm, David
                          Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>

                          wrote:</div>
                        <br>
                        <div>
                          <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">Randy,<br>
                            <br>
                            Yes, my chapter in WALS characterizes the
                            English and Mandarin constructions as "of
                            the same type structurally", and yes, the
                            two constructions are different from each
                            other in precisely the ways that you
                            describe!<br>
                            <br>
                            That's what typology does: dividing things
                            into classes according to one set of
                            criteria, thereby putting in to the same
                            class things that are very different
                            according to other sets of criteria.  And
                            that's precisely what has happened here.  My
                            WALS chapter asks whether an adjective can
                            occur on its own as a noun, without any
                            further morphosyntactic marking and the
                            answer for both English and Mandarin is the
                            same: no.  It then further asks, for
                            languages that require such morphosyntactic
                            marking, what the formal properties of the
                            marking is, distinguishing between affixes
                            and separate words, and between forms that
                            occur before and after their host
                            adjective.  And once again, Mandarin and
                            English come out the same, with a separate
                            word that occurs after its host adjective. 
                            That's all the WALS chapter purports to say.<br>
                            <br>
                            Now clearly many constructions in different
                            languages with the same WALS feature values
                            will differ from each other in myriad other
                            ways, as is the case for English and
                            Mandarin here.  You may feel that the
                            typology proposed in the "Adjectives without
                            Nouns" WALS map overlooks what's "most
                            important" about the constructions in
                            question, and you could indeed be right
                            about that.  I suspect, however, that an
                            alternative "Adjective without Nouns" map
                            distinguishing between "English and Mandarin
                            types" on the basis of headedness would have
                            been impractical to produce, since it is too
                            theory dependent, and hence it would not
                            have been possible to glean the necessary
                            information from available grammatical
                            descriptions of a sufficiently large sample
                            of languages.  (In fact, while I agree
                            entirely with your description of the
                            difference between English and Mandarin, I
                            bet that there are even grammatical
                            descriptions of English and Mandarin out
                            there that would see things differently.)<br>
                            <br>
                            I hope this clarifies matters ...<br>
                            <br>
                            David<br>
                            <br>
                            <br>
                            <div>On 12/06/2016
                              08:20, Randy John LaPolla (Prof) wrote:<br>
                            </div>
                            <blockquote type="cite"> Hi David,
                              <div>It seems from your message
                                here and from your chapter in WALS that
                                the English construction with <i>one</i> and the Chinese
                                construction with <i>de </i>are

                                of the same type structurally. I don’t
                                know if I have read you right, but
                                although they are made up of the word
                                representing a property concept followed
                                by another word, the two constructions
                                are quite different (and the natures of
                                all of the words involved are different
                                as well). In the relevant use of English
                                <i>one</i>, it is a pro-form
                                (see  <span lang="EN-US"> Goldberg,
                                  Adele E. & Laura A. Michaelis.
                                  2016. One among many: anaphoric <i> one</i> and its
                                  relationship to numeral <i>one</i>.
                                </span><span><i>Cognitive
                                    Science</i> 40.4:1–26. DOI:
                                  10.1111/cogs.12339</span>  for
                                interesting discussion) and clearly the
                                head of the phrase, but in the Chinese
                                example <i>de</i> is only a
                                nominalizer and clearly not the head of
                                the phrase, either in terms of
                                structural behaviour (e.g. in English <i>one</i> patterns like other
                                heads, e.g. we can say “this one”, but
                                this is not the case with Chinese <i>de</i>) or in terms of
                                speakers’ “feel” for what is the core
                                element of the phrase.</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>This sort of goes back to
                                the discussion on categorization we had
                                back in January.</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>All the best,</div>
                              <div>Randy</div>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <div style="letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                                    <div><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background-color:white">-----</span></span>
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                                          <div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px"><span style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px">
                                                <div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background-color:white"><b>Prof. Randy J. LaPolla, PhD FAHA</b> (羅</span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);background-color:white;font-size:13px"><font face="Song">仁地</font></span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background-color:white">)| Division of Linguistics and Multilingual
                                                    Studies | Nanyang
                                                    Technological
                                                    University</span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><br>
                                                      <span style="background-color:white">HSS-03-45,

                                                        14 Nanyang
                                                        Drive, Singapore
                                                        637332</span></span></span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="background-color:white"> | </span></span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span style="background-color:white">Tel:
                                                        (65) 6592-1825
                                                        GMT+8h | Fax:
                                                        (65) 6795-6525 |
                                                        <a href="http://randylapolla.net/" target="_blank"> </a><a href="http://randylapolla.net/" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://randylapolla.net/" target="_blank">http://randylapolla.net/</a></span></span></span></div>
                                              </span></span></div>
                                        </span></div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                  <br>
                                  <br>
                                </div>
                                <br>
                                <div>
                                  <blockquote type="cite">
                                    <div>On 11 Jun 2016, at
                                      3:33 pm, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>

                                      wrote:</div>
                                    <br>
                                    <div>
                                      <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">Luigi,<br>
                                        <br>
                                        Unlike many of my typologist
                                        colleagues who seek refuge from
                                        the muddy waters of formal
                                        criteria in the supposed clarity
                                        of semantics, I find semantic
                                        criteria to often be just as
                                        problematical, if not more so,
                                        than their formal counterparts.<br>
                                        <br>
                                        For the purposes of my WALS map,
                                        I did not use headedness as a
                                        defining criteria, and I would
                                        not wish to take a stand on the
                                        headedness in the examples that
                                        you discuss.  By "adjective" I
                                        meant property-denoting word one
                                        of whose typical functions is as
                                        an attribute of a noun, and by
                                        "noun" I meant thing-denoting
                                        word.  The map shows the
                                        morphosyntactic strategies that
                                        a language uses to allow an
                                        adjective to occur in a noun
                                        slot — typically, but not
                                        criterially, heading a phrase
                                        that occurs in an argument
                                        position.  This definition is
                                        met, among others, by the <i>one</i> in English <i> beautiful one</i>,
                                        the <i>de</i> in
                                        Mandarin <i>hong de</i>,
                                        and also by the lack of
                                        (dedicated adjective-to-noun
                                        conversion) marking in the
                                        Italian <i>il bello</i>.<br>
                                        <br>
                                        Best,<br>
                                        <br>
                                        David<br>
                                        <br>
                                        <div>On
                                          10/06/2016 23:01, Luigi Talamo
                                          wrote:<br>
                                        </div>
                                        <blockquote type="cite">
                                          <div dir="ltr">
                                            <div><font face="arial, helvetica,
                                                sans-serif">Dear all,</font></div>
                                            <div><font face="arial, helvetica,
                                                sans-serif">thanks a lot
                                                for your all answers, I
                                                really appreciate that.</font></div>
                                            <div><font face="arial, helvetica,
                                                sans-serif">I have found
                                                your data very
                                                interesting, many
                                                comments will follow :-)</font></div>
                                            <div><font face="arial, helvetica,
                                                sans-serif">I begin
                                                below with David's
                                                answer.</font></div>
                                            <div><font face="arial, helvetica,
                                                sans-serif"><br>
                                              </font></div>
                                            <div><br>
                                            </div>
                                            <div class="gmail_extra">
                                              <div class="gmail_quote">
                                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><font face="arial,
                                                      helvetica,
                                                      sans-serif">One of
                                                      the two kinds of
                                                      nominalization
                                                      mentioned in the
                                                      query ('beautiful'
                                                      > 'beautiful
                                                      one') is the
                                                      subject of my WALS
                                                      map #61
                                                      "Adjectives
                                                      without Nouns".<br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      David</font></div>
                                                </blockquote>
                                                <div><font face="arial,
                                                    helvetica,
                                                    sans-serif"><br>
                                                  </font></div>
                                                <div><font face="arial,
                                                    helvetica,
                                                    sans-serif"><br>
                                                  </font></div>
                                                <div><font face="arial,
                                                    helvetica,
                                                    sans-serif">Thanks
                                                    David, I have read
                                                    your WALS map at the
                                                    beginning of my
                                                    work; maybe you
                                                    remember that we
                                                    have exchanged a
                                                    couple of e-mails
                                                    some time ago. As
                                                    you mention in the
                                                    WALS article, the
                                                    most important issue
                                                    here is whether
                                                    adjectives are
                                                    syntactic heads in
                                                    constructions such
                                                    as 'the white one',
                                                    which translates in
                                                    Italian as 'quello
                                                    bianco'. As you
                                                    probably noticed, I
                                                    did not consider
                                                    these constructions
                                                    in my study, as they
                                                    appear to me to be
                                                    more 'predicative'
                                                    than 'referential',
                                                    at least in Italian;
                                                    moreover, the
                                                    syntactic head of
                                                    the Italian
                                                    construction is most
                                                    likely the deictic
                                                    quello 'this'. But
                                                    what about the
                                                    Mandarin example
                                                    that is reported in
                                                    your map, Wǒ yào
                                                    hóng de. ? Is </font><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">hóng

                                                    a property concept
                                                    with referential
                                                    function ?</span></div>
                                                <div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
                                                  </span></div>
                                                <div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Thanks</span></div>
                                                <div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
                                                  </span></div>
                                                <div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Luigi</span></div>
                                                <div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
                                                  </span></div>
                                                <div><br>
                                                </div>
                                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
                                                    <div>
                                                      <div><font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif"><br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                        </font>
                                                        <div><font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif">On
                                                          09/06/2016
                                                          21:14, Luigi
                                                          Talamo wrote:<br>
                                                          </font></div>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <blockquote type="cite">
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <div dir="ltr">
                                                          <div><font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif">Dear

                                                          all,</font></div>
                                                          <div><font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif">I
                                                          am conducting
                                                          a research on
                                                          the lexical
                                                          nominalisation
                                                          of property
                                                          concepts in
                                                          contemporary
                                                          Italian. My
                                                          study involves
                                                          two types of
                                                          nominalisation
                                                          strategy,
                                                          affixation
                                                          such as bello
                                                          `beautiful'
                                                          ->
                                                          bell-ezza
                                                          `beauty
                                                          (abstract
                                                          concept)' and
                                                          zero-marking
                                                          ('conversion'),
                                                          such as bello
                                                          (adj) ->
                                                          `(il) bello'
                                                          -> `the
                                                          beautiful
                                                          person',
                                                          `beauty
                                                          (abstract
                                                          concept)' and
                                                          `what is
                                                          beautiful
                                                          about
                                                          something'. </font></div>
                                                          <div><font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif">Drawing

                                                          mostly from
                                                          'Leipzig
                                                          Questionnaire
                                                          On
                                                          Nominalisation
                                                          and mixed
                                                          Categories'
                                                          (Malchukov et
                                                          alii (2008))
                                                          and studies on
                                                          adjectival and
                                                          mixed
                                                          categories, I
                                                          have
                                                          elaborated a
                                                          series of
                                                          morpho-syntactic
                                                          and semantic
                                                          parameters,
                                                          which I have
                                                          employed to
                                                          study
                                                          de-adjectival
                                                          nominalizations

                                                          in actual,
                                                          corpus-based
                                                          contexts.</font></div>
                                                          <div><font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif">I
                                                          would like to
                                                          insert in my
                                                          study some
                                                          cross-linguistic
                                                          notes on the
                                                          phenomenon,
                                                          which I hope
                                                          to further
                                                          study from a
                                                          typological
                                                          perspective. I
                                                          will be glad
                                                          if you can
                                                          provide me
                                                          some examples
                                                          from your
                                                          languages of
                                                          expertise. I
                                                          have found
                                                          some examples
                                                          of
                                                          de-adjectival
                                                          nominalizations

                                                          here and there
                                                          in grammars,
                                                          but I was not
                                                          able to
                                                          exactly figure
                                                          out which are
                                                          the parameters
                                                          involved;
                                                          moreover, some
                                                          recent works
                                                          (among others,
                                                          Roy (2010),
                                                          Alexiadou et
                                                          alii (2010),
                                                          Alexiadou
                                                          &
                                                          Iordachioaia
                                                          (2014)) give
                                                          interesting
                                                          insights on
                                                          de-adjectival
                                                          nominalization,

                                                          but examples
                                                          are limited to
                                                          European
                                                          languages.</font></div>
                                                          <div><font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif"><br>
                                                          </font></div>
                                                          <div><font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif">I
                                                          am
                                                          particularly
                                                          interested in
                                                          non-European
                                                          languages
                                                          showing a
                                                          distinct class
                                                          of adjectives;
                                                          morpho-syntatic

                                                          parameters
                                                          include case,
                                                          number,
                                                          gender,
                                                          definiteness
                                                          and
                                                          specificity,
                                                          degree,
                                                          external
                                                          argument
                                                          structure and,
                                                          possibly,
                                                          verbal
                                                          parameters,
                                                          which are
                                                          however not
                                                          very
                                                          significant
                                                          for Italian
                                                          de-adjectival
                                                          nominalisation;

                                                          semantic
                                                          parameters
                                                          include
                                                          referent
                                                          animacy, the
                                                          distinction
                                                          between the
                                                          nominalisation
                                                          of the
                                                          adjectival
                                                          'argument' vs.
                                                          the
                                                          nominalisation
                                                          of the
                                                          adjective
                                                          itself e.g.,
                                                          softie `a
                                                          thing which is
                                                          soft' vs.
                                                          softness and
                                                          the semantic
                                                          type of
                                                          property
                                                          concepts e.g.,
                                                          PHYSICAL
                                                          PROPERTY or
                                                          HUMAN
                                                          PROPENSITY.<br>
                                                          </font></div>
                                                          <div><font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif"><br>
                                                          </font></div>
                                                          <div><font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif">So,

                                                          possible
                                                          questions are
                                                          as following:</font></div>
                                                          <div><font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif">1.
                                                          Can property
                                                          concepts be
                                                          turned into
                                                          nouns?</font></div>
                                                          <div><font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif">2.
                                                          Which
                                                          strategies are
                                                          employed for
                                                          this purpose?</font></div>
                                                          <div><font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif">3.
                                                          Which
                                                          parameters do
                                                          de-adjectival
                                                          nouns display?</font></div>
                                                          <div><font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif">4.
                                                          Are there any
                                                          missing values
                                                          for a given
                                                          parameter? For
                                                          instance,
                                                          de-adjectival
                                                          nouns can be
                                                          only singular
                                                          or definite or
                                                          restricted to
                                                          the subject
                                                          position.</font></div>
                                                          <div><font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif">5.
                                                          Are
                                                          de-adjectival
                                                          nouns found in
                                                          both semantic
                                                          types of
                                                          nominalization?
                                                          For instance,
                                                          I have
                                                          observed that
                                                          European
                                                          languages
                                                          focus on the
                                                          nominalisation
                                                          of the
                                                          adjective
                                                          itself, while
                                                          argument
                                                          nominalizations
                                                          are scarcely
                                                          attested,
                                                          limited to
                                                          certain
                                                          language
                                                          varieties and
                                                          not stable in
                                                          the lexicon.</font></div>
                                                          <div><font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif"><br>
                                                          </font></div>
                                                          <div><font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif">(needless

                                                          to say,
                                                          questions 2 to
                                                          4 can have
                                                          multiple
                                                          answers,
                                                          helping to
                                                          describe
                                                          different
                                                          patterns of
                                                          property
                                                          nominalisation)<br>
                                                          </font></div>
                                                          <div><font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif"><br>
                                                          </font></div>
                                                          <div><font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif">Thanks

                                                          in advance for
                                                          your help, all
                                                          the best.</font></div>
                                                          <div><font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif"><br>
                                                          </font></div>
                                                          <div><font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif">Luigi</font></div>
                                                          <font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif"><br clear="all">
                                                          </font>
                                                          <div><font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif"><br>
                                                          </font></div>
                                                          <font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif">--
                                                          <br>
                                                          </font>
                                                          <div><font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif">PhD

                                                          Program in
                                                          Linguistics
                                                          ('Scienze
                                                          Linguistiche')<br>
                                                          University of
                                                          Bergamo and
                                                          University of
                                                          Pavia - Italy</font></div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif"><br>
                                                          </font>
                                                          <fieldset></fieldset>
                                                          <font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif"> <br>
                                                          </font></div>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <span><font face="arial,
                                                          helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif">
                                                          <pre>_______________________________________________
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</pre>
                                                        </font></span></blockquote>
                                                    <span><font face="arial,
                                                        helvetica,
                                                        sans-serif" color="#888888"><br>
                                                        <pre cols="72">-- 
David Gil

Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany

Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): <a href="tel:%2B49-3641686834" value="+493641686834" target="_blank">+49-3641686834</a>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): <a href="tel:%2B62-82238009215" value="+6282238009215" target="_blank">+62-82238009215</a>

</pre>
                                                      </font></span></div>
                                                  <font face="arial,
                                                    helvetica,
                                                    sans-serif"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
                                                    Lingtyp mailing list<br>
                                                    <a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
                                                    <a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br>
                                                    <br>
                                                  </font></blockquote>
                                              </div>
                                              <font face="arial, helvetica,
                                                sans-serif"><br>
                                                <br clear="all">
                                              </font>
                                              <div><font face="arial,
                                                  helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
                                                </font></div>
                                              <font face="arial, helvetica,
                                                sans-serif">-- <br>
                                              </font>
                                              <div><font face="arial,
                                                  helvetica, sans-serif">PhD

                                                  Program in Linguistics
                                                  ('Scienze
                                                  Linguistiche')<br>
                                                  University of Bergamo
                                                  and University of
                                                  Pavia - Italy</font></div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                          <br>
                                          <fieldset></fieldset>
                                          <br>
                                          <pre>_______________________________________________
Lingtyp mailing list
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
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</pre>
                                        </blockquote>
                                        <br>
                                        <pre cols="72">-- 
David Gil

Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany

Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): <a href="tel:%2B49-3641686834" value="+493641686834" target="_blank">+49-3641686834</a>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): <a href="tel:%2B62-82238009215" value="+6282238009215" target="_blank">+62-82238009215</a>

</pre>
                                      </div>
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                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                </div>
                                <br>
                              </div>
                              <hr> <font face="Arial" color="Gray" size="2">CONFIDENTIALITY:
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                                when necessary. Thank you.</font> </blockquote>
                            <br>
                            <pre cols="72">-- 
David Gil

Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany

Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): <a href="tel:%2B49-3641686834" value="+493641686834" target="_blank">+49-3641686834</a>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): <a href="tel:%2B62-82238009215" value="+6282238009215" target="_blank">+62-82238009215</a>

</pre>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </blockquote>
                    </div>
                    <br><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
                  </font></span></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
                </font></span></blockquote><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
                <br>
                <pre cols="72">-- 
David Gil

Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany

Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): <a href="tel:%2B49-3641686834" value="+493641686834" target="_blank">+49-3641686834</a>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): <a href="tel:%2B62-82238009215" value="+6282238009215" target="_blank">+62-82238009215</a>

</pre>
              </font></span></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
            </font></span></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
          </font></span></blockquote><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
        </font></span></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
        <br>
      </font></span></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
    </font></span></blockquote><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
    <br>
    <pre cols="72">-- 
David Gil

Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany

Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): <a href="tel:%2B49-3641686834" value="+493641686834" target="_blank">+49-3641686834</a>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): <a href="tel:%2B62-82238009215" value="+6282238009215" target="_blank">+62-82238009215</a>

</pre>
  </font></span></div>

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