<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
Dear Seino,<br>
<br>
The issues you raise are of course valid, and of general relevance
to our field; they're anything but specific to the particular case
of adjectives in Mandarin. Indeed, I have spent much of the last
couple of decades arguing a very similar point to the one that you
make but with respect to colloquial varieties of Indonesian, which
are notoriously difficult to obtain reliable data on, for reasons
similar to those which you mention for Mandarin. However, when
engaging in typology, we are forced to sacrifice depth for breadth,
and there is nothing wrong with that provided we are clear and
consistent with respect to our methodology. In the case at hand,
what is important is that I looked at Mandarin, Indonesian, and all
of the other languages through the same eyes — and found a
significant difference between "Mandarin-type" and "Indonesian-type"
languages with respect to the criterion in question. Clearly WALS
data should not be considered as the final word on anything. WALS
should be construed as an invitation to further work, be it
correcting erroneous data points, filling in empty data cells,
defining features in alternative ways that may be more insightful,
and of course seeking explanations for the areal and typological
patterns that emerge.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 26/06/2016 00:36, Seino van Breugel
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAKnHSrGXg68EUPueUJ7Xh1A+T2=nZwf9QHLROPbB3h-E+_fHRw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div dir="ltr">Dear David,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don't know how many and what type of consultants you
consulted about <span style="font-size:12.8px">examples that
you offered of unmarked property words in argument position
in Mandarin, but I think that the fact that they
consistently rejected your examples is not a very valid
argument to say that the examples were grammatically
incorrect. In my experience, it happens all the time in
fieldwork that native speakers reject example utterances
during elicitation, even though they use them all the time
in real, unchecked life; they are just not aware of it. Due
to any number of reasons, when confronted with certain
utterances, they reject them. For example, speakers may
reject an utterance because it deviates from some kind of
perceived standard, and that they feel that, in order to
show their knowledge of the standard, they should reject
them, especially when the person asking them is a very
learned person. The point is that, in my opinion,
elicitation alone should not be taken as the basis of a
grammatical description. Elicitation should only be used as
a tool to gain some deeper insight into the language after
ample un-elicited, or spontaneous speech has been collected
and analysed.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Regards,</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Seino</span></div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Dr. Seino van Breugel<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://independent.academia.edu/SeinovanBreugel"
target="_blank">https://independent.academia.edu/SeinovanBreugel</a><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHfiZwqyWC7HfZUAQ1RH1ew"
target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHfiZwqyWC7HfZUAQ1RH1ew</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 1:17 PM, David
Gil <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Randy,<br>
<br>
Thanks for the very nice presentation of textual examples
involving the various combinations of <i>de</i> with the
word for 'red'. Of the examples that you cite, it is (2)
which constitutes an apparent counterexample to my
WALS-map classification of Mandarin as requiring a marker
in order for a property-denoting word to occur in argument
position. Note, however, that in the given context, a
similar construction is possible also for English: you
could perhaps have translated (2) as 'See red before
giving birth'. Given the existence of constructions such
as the latter translation, some have questioned my
characterization of English in the same WALS map, arguing
that adjectives can indeed occur in unmarked form in
argument position in English too. This is the
typologist's predicament, and why typologists often get as
much flack as they do from language specialists. Sure,
constructions such as these occur in English, however,
they are significantly more constrained than in a language
such as Italian, Hebrew, or Malay, in which they occur
much more freely. To do typology, you need to posit
arbitrary cut-off points, and for better or worse, I chose
to classify languages which allow unmarked adjectives to
occur in limited contexts such as English as belonging to
the same type as languages which do not allow them at all,
rather than as belonging to the same type as languages
that allow them freely. In large part this was for
practical reasons; I felt more confident in my ability to
get the facts right using this cut-off point than the
alternative one. And indeed, your data from Mandarin
vindicate my decision. My Mandarin data was based on
elicitation, and perhaps because I am not an expert in
Mandarin, I did not encounter, and hence was not aware of,
constructions such as that in (2). Now if I had chosen a
simple yes/no cut-off point, I would now, on the basis of
your comments, have to amend my classification of
Mandarin, and, much worse, I would be increasingly
suspicious of my classification of many other languages in
the sample. However, given that my Mandarin consultants
consistently rejected the examples that I offered them of
unmarked property words in argument position, I remain
confident that my classification of Mandarin in the WALS
map is the correct one.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
<div>On 23/06/2016 16:55, Randy John LaPolla (Prof) wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> Hi David,
<div>Sorry to take so long to get back you. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yes, it is fine to "observe two entities, call them
A and B, and then say Hey, A and B are alike <b>with
respect to</b> property X”, but my argument was that
they are not alike in terms of property X. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In terms of what you said about word classes, <i>de</i>
is not required in Mandarin for an adjective (stative
verb) or any other verb to be used as a referential
phrase; as I argued in my paper arguing for a
constructionalist approach to Chinese,* it is simply a
matter of where it appears in the construction. In the
case of adjectives, there is a difference in the use
or not of <i>de</i> with the adjective: without it it
would probably be more often used to refer to the
quality as an entity, but with it it would probably be
used to refer to an object with that quality. Below
are five natural examples are each type. In 1 we have
it without <i>de,</i> used to refer to a type of red.
In 2, also without de, it refers to a red object,
blood. In 3 it is used with de as a headless relative
clause, referring to the hands. In 4, with de, it
refers to the quality of being red. In 5, with de, it
refers to the red ring of skin, which might also be
seen as a headless relative.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);background-color:rgb(243,245,249)">1
中国红到底是什么红？</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://daxianggonghui.baijia.baidu.com/article/49119"
target="_blank">http://daxianggonghui.baijia.baidu.com/article/49119</a></div>
<div><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);background-color:rgb(243,245,249)">Zhongguo
hong daodi shi shenme hong </span></div>
<div><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);background-color:rgb(243,245,249)">China
red afterall cop what red</span></div>
<div><span style="background-color:rgb(243,245,249)"><font
color="#333333">‘So what is China red?'</font></span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">2</span><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51)"> 产前见红 </span><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51)"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.yaolan.com/zhishi/chanqianjianhong/"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.yaolan.com/zhishi/chanqianjianhong/">http://www.yaolan.com/zhishi/chanqianjianhong/</a></a></span></div>
<div>chan qian jian hong</div>
<div>give.birth before see red</div>
<div>‘See blood before giving birth’</div>
<div><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
</span></div>
<h3 style="margin:0px;padding:12px 0px
0px;color:rgb(34,34,34);line-height:32px;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:nowrap;overflow:hidden">
<font size="4"><span style="font-weight:normal">3 </span><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span
style="font-weight:normal">白的雪，青的葱，红红的是她的小手</span> </span><font
color="#333333"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tiku.21cnjy.com/quest/gzN2U__QMT4O.html"
style="font-weight:normal" target="_blank">http://tiku.21cnjy.com/quest/gzN2U__QMT4O.html</a></font></font></h3>
<div><font color="#333333"><br>
</font></div>
<div>bai-de xue, qing-de cong, hong-hong-de shi ta-de
xiaoshou</div>
<div>white-de snow, green-de scallion, red-red-de cop
3sg-de small-hand</div>
<div>‘White snow, green scallions, the red one is her
small hand’</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<h4 style="padding:0px;margin:0px 0.5em 0px
0px;word-break:break-all;border:0px;vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(51,51,51)">
<span style="font-weight:normal">4 </span><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);line-height:32px;white-space:nowrap">关
羽脸为什 么是红的?</span><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);line-height:32px;white-space:nowrap;font-weight:normal"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://iask.sina.com.cn/b/10634327.html"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://iask.sina.com.cn/b/10634327.html">http://iask.sina.com.cn/b/10634327.html</a></a></span></h4>
<div><span style="font-weight:normal">Guan Yu lian
weishenme shi hong-de</span></div>
<div><span style="font-weight:normal">PN face
why cop red-de</span></div>
<div>‘Why is Guan Yu’s face red?'</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">5</span><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-weight:bold;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
宝宝嘴巴周围一圈红红的是怎么回事? </span><font color="#333333"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.babytree.com/ask/detail/42954"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.babytree.com/ask/detail/42954">http://www.babytree.com/ask/detail/42954</a></a></font></div>
<div><font color="#333333">Baobao zuiba zhouwei yi-quan
hong-hong-de shi zenme hui shi?</font></div>
<div><font color="#333333">baby mouth around
one-ring red-red-de cop how CL thing</font></div>
<div><font color="#333333">‘What is the deal with the
ring of redness around the baby’s mouth?’</font></div>
<div><font face="Microsoft Yahei, Microsoft Jhenghei"
color="#333333"><span style="font-size:20px"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div>*<span style="font-family:'Times New
Roman';font-size:12pt;line-height:16pt;text-align:justify">LaPolla,
Randy J. 2013. "Arguments for a construction-based
approach to the analysis of Chinese". In </span><i>Human
Language Resources and Linguistic Typology</i><span
style="font-family:'Times New
Roman';font-size:12pt;line-height:16pt;text-align:justify">,
Papers from the Fourth International Conference on
Sinology, edited by Tseng Chiu-yu, 33-57. Taiwan:
Academia Sinica.</span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt
36pt;text-align:justify;line-height:16pt"> <span
lang="EN-US"><span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://randylapolla.net/papers/LaPolla_2013_Arguments_for_a_construction-based_approach_to_the_analysis_of_Chinese.pdf"
target="_blank">http://randylapolla.net/papers/LaPolla_2013_Arguments_for_a_construction-based_approach_to_the_analysis_of_Chinese.pdf</a></span></span><span
lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So for me there are no global word classes; we
need to look at the propositional functions of the
elements in the particular constructions in which
they appear.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>All the best,</div>
<div>Randy</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 13 Jun 2016, at 6:24 pm, David Gil <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a></a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">Randy,<br>
<br>
Thanks for your comments. Two points:<br>
<br>
With regard to whether Mandarin <i>de</i> is
a separate word or not, your criticism is
well-taken; my only defense is that that is
the way it is usually characterized, and that
in a typological survey of this scope, there
is no other way of doing things other than to
rely on extant descriptions. Except perhaps
to sidestep the issue of wordhood altogether
and simply collapse "affix" and "separate
word" into a single type, which, I suspect, is
what would do now if I were doing the chapter
all over again.<br>
<br>
But I really don't see your point when you
write: "I still don’t see what lumping
together language forms that aren’t similar
into categories that make them look similar
does for us." Surely this is the only way for
rational inquiry into language (or any other
phenomenological domain) to proceed.
"Similar" and "not similar" aren't binary
holistic choices, they only have meaning in
the context of particular criteria or
properties. We observe two entities, call
them A and B, and then say Hey, A and B are
alike <b>with respect to</b> property X. The
value of saying this depends on how trivial or
insightful the property X turns out to be, ie.
what further understandings X leads us
towards. But crucially, the value of X is not
negated by pointing to properties Y, Z, W, V
etc, with respect to which A and B differ.
The existence of such properties with respect
to which A and B differ is totally irrelevant
to the value of property X, they do not
impinge on it in any way.<br>
<br>
You ask "what has lumping Mandarin and English
together in this context taught us about the
languages?". Well one of the things I've
always been interested in is cross-linguistic
variation with respect to parts-of-speech
inventories. The present WALS map addresses
the issue of whether a language distinguishes
between adjectives and nouns. (Note: I'm
saying "addresses", not "answers".)
Specifically, if a language, like English or
Mandarin, needs to add a grammatical marker to
an adjective in order to give it the
distributional properties of a noun, then this
provides good reason to suspect that in such
languages, adjectives and nouns constitute
different word classes, defined
distributionally. Whereas if a language, like
Italian or Hebrew, doesn't need to make use of
such a marker, then perhaps it doesn't
distinguish between adjectives and nouns (as
indeed is suggested by the traditional term
"substantives" that groups the two classes
together), though alternatively it could be
the case that the language in question does
distinguish between adjectives and nouns using
other criteria.<br>
<br>
So all this is relevant to English and
Mandarin, regardless of the myriad other
important differences between English <i>one</i>
and Mandarin <i>de.<br>
<br>
</i>Best,<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 13/06/2016 17:44, Randy John LaPolla
(Prof) wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> Hi David,
<div>Thanks for your reply. The crux may be
the definition of Mandarin <i> de</i> as
a word (you don’t specify phonological
word or grammatical word, but since you
treat clitics—grammatical words that
aren’t phonological words—differently, I
am assuming you mean phonological word).
It cannot appear on its own, and when
added to another word, like <i>hong</i>,
they are pronounced together, so it
patterns like a clitic, and so is unlike
English <i>one</i> in that way as well
(people are often thrown off by the fact
that in Chinese each character is written
separately, but that doesn’t mean each
character is a phonological word). </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And although I don’t want to start the
whole debate we had in January again, I
still don’t see what lumping together
language forms that aren’t similar into
categories that make them look similar
does for us. Although I can see the
practical difficulties of taking the
actual facts of all the languages
seriously, very concretely, what has
lumping Mandarin and English together in
this context taught us about the
languages?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks very much.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>All the best,</div>
<div>Randy</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 12 Jun 2016, at 1:36 pm, David
Gil <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de"
target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000">Randy,<br>
<br>
Yes, my chapter in WALS
characterizes the English and
Mandarin constructions as "of the
same type structurally", and yes,
the two constructions are
different from each other in
precisely the ways that you
describe!<br>
<br>
That's what typology does:
dividing things into classes
according to one set of criteria,
thereby putting in to the same
class things that are very
different according to other sets
of criteria. And that's precisely
what has happened here. My WALS
chapter asks whether an adjective
can occur on its own as a noun,
without any further
morphosyntactic marking and the
answer for both English and
Mandarin is the same: no. It then
further asks, for languages that
require such morphosyntactic
marking, what the formal
properties of the marking is,
distinguishing between affixes and
separate words, and between forms
that occur before and after their
host adjective. And once again,
Mandarin and English come out the
same, with a separate word that
occurs after its host adjective.
That's all the WALS chapter
purports to say.<br>
<br>
Now clearly many constructions in
different languages with the same
WALS feature values will differ
from each other in myriad other
ways, as is the case for English
and Mandarin here. You may feel
that the typology proposed in the
"Adjectives without Nouns" WALS
map overlooks what's "most
important" about the constructions
in question, and you could indeed
be right about that. I suspect,
however, that an alternative
"Adjective without Nouns" map
distinguishing between "English
and Mandarin types" on the basis
of headedness would have been
impractical to produce, since it
is too theory dependent, and hence
it would not have been possible to
glean the necessary information
from available grammatical
descriptions of a sufficiently
large sample of languages. (In
fact, while I agree entirely with
your description of the difference
between English and Mandarin, I
bet that there are even
grammatical descriptions of
English and Mandarin out there
that would see things
differently.)<br>
<br>
I hope this clarifies matters ...<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 12/06/2016 08:20, Randy
John LaPolla (Prof) wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> Hi David,
<div>It seems from your message
here and from your chapter in
WALS that the English
construction with <i>one</i>
and the Chinese construction
with <i>de </i>are of the
same type structurally. I
don’t know if I have read you
right, but although they are
made up of the word
representing a property
concept followed by another
word, the two constructions
are quite different (and the
natures of all of the words
involved are different as
well). In the relevant use of
English <i>one</i>, it is a
pro-form (see <span
lang="EN-US"> Goldberg,
Adele E. & Laura A.
Michaelis. 2016. One among
many: anaphoric <i> one</i>
and its relationship to
numeral <i>one</i>. </span><span><i>Cognitive
Science</i> 40.4:1–26.
DOI: 10.1111/cogs.12339</span>
for interesting discussion)
and clearly the head of the
phrase, but in the Chinese
example <i>de</i> is only a
nominalizer and clearly not
the head of the phrase, either
in terms of structural
behaviour (e.g. in English <i>one</i>
patterns like other heads,
e.g. we can say “this one”,
but this is not the case with
Chinese <i>de</i>) or in
terms of speakers’ “feel” for
what is the core element of
the phrase.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This sort of goes back to
the discussion on
categorization we had back in
January.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>All the best,</div>
<div>Randy</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div><span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background-color:white">-----</span></span>
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word">
<span
style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word"><span
style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px"><span
style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background-color:white"><b>Prof.
Randy J.
LaPolla, PhD
FAHA</b> （羅</span><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);background-color:white;font-size:13px"><font
face="Song">仁地</font></span><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background-color:white">）|
Division of
Linguistics
and
Multilingual
Studies |
Nanyang
Technological
University</span><span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><br>
<span
style="background-color:white">HSS-03-45,
14 Nanyang
Drive,
Singapore
637332</span></span></span><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span
style="background-color:white"> | </span></span><span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span
style="background-color:white">Tel: (65) 6592-1825 GMT+8h | Fax: (65)
6795-6525 | <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://randylapolla.net/" target="_blank">
</a><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://randylapolla.net/" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://randylapolla.net/">http://randylapolla.net/</a></a></span></span></span></div>
</span></span></div>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 11 Jun 2016, at
3:33 pm, David Gil <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a></a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">Luigi,<br>
<br>
Unlike many of my
typologist colleagues
who seek refuge from
the muddy waters of
formal criteria in the
supposed clarity of
semantics, I find
semantic criteria to
often be just as
problematical, if not
more so, than their
formal counterparts.<br>
<br>
For the purposes of my
WALS map, I did not
use headedness as a
defining criteria, and
I would not wish to
take a stand on the
headedness in the
examples that you
discuss. By
"adjective" I meant
property-denoting word
one of whose typical
functions is as an
attribute of a noun,
and by "noun" I meant
thing-denoting word.
The map shows the
morphosyntactic
strategies that a
language uses to allow
an adjective to occur
in a noun slot —
typically, but not
criterially, heading a
phrase that occurs in
an argument position.
This definition is
met, among others, by
the <i>one</i> in
English <i> beautiful
one</i>, the <i>de</i>
in Mandarin <i>hong
de</i>, and also by
the lack of (dedicated
adjective-to-noun
conversion) marking in
the Italian <i>il
bello</i>.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
<div>On 10/06/2016
23:01, Luigi Talamo
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">Dear
all,</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">thanks
a lot for your
all answers, I
really
appreciate
that.</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">I
have found
your data very
interesting,
many comments
will follow
:-)</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">I
begin below
with David's
answer.</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra">
<div
class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px
0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div
bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">One
of the two
kinds of
nominalization
mentioned in
the query
('beautiful'
>
'beautiful
one') is the
subject of my
WALS map #61
"Adjectives
without
Nouns".<br>
<br>
David</font></div>
</blockquote>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">Thanks
David, I have
read your WALS
map at the
beginning of
my work; maybe
you remember
that we have
exchanged a
couple of
e-mails some
time ago. As
you mention in
the WALS
article, the
most important
issue here is
whether
adjectives are
syntactic
heads in
constructions
such as 'the
white one',
which
translates in
Italian as
'quello
bianco'. As
you probably
noticed, I did
not consider
these
constructions
in my study,
as they appear
to me to be
more
'predicative'
than
'referential',
at least in
Italian;
moreover, the
syntactic head
of the Italian
construction
is most likely
the deictic
quello 'this'.
But what about
the Mandarin
example that
is reported in
your map, Wǒ
yào hóng de.
? Is </font><span
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">hóng a property concept
with
referential
function ?</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Thanks</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Luigi</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px
0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div
bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">On
09/06/2016
21:14, Luigi
Talamo wrote:<br>
</font></div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">Dear
all,</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">I
am conducting
a research on
the lexical
nominalisation
of property
concepts in
contemporary
Italian. My
study involves
two types of
nominalisation
strategy,
affixation
such as bello
`beautiful'
->
bell-ezza
`beauty
(abstract
concept)' and
zero-marking
('conversion'),
such as bello
(adj) ->
`(il) bello'
-> `the
beautiful
person',
`beauty
(abstract
concept)' and
`what is
beautiful
about
something'. </font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">Drawing
mostly from
'Leipzig
Questionnaire
On
Nominalisation
and mixed
Categories'
(Malchukov et
alii (2008))
and studies on
adjectival and
mixed
categories, I
have
elaborated a
series of
morpho-syntactic
and semantic
parameters,
which I have
employed to
study
de-adjectival
nominalizations
in actual,
corpus-based
contexts.</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">I
would like to
insert in my
study some
cross-linguistic
notes on the
phenomenon,
which I hope
to further
study from a
typological
perspective. I
will be glad
if you can
provide me
some examples
from your
languages of
expertise. I
have found
some examples
of
de-adjectival
nominalizations
here and there
in grammars,
but I was not
able to
exactly figure
out which are
the parameters
involved;
moreover, some
recent works
(among others,
Roy (2010),
Alexiadou et
alii (2010),
Alexiadou
&
Iordachioaia
(2014)) give
interesting
insights on
de-adjectival
nominalization,
but examples
are limited to
European
languages.</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">I
am
particularly
interested in
non-European
languages
showing a
distinct class
of adjectives;
morpho-syntatic
parameters
include case,
number,
gender,
definiteness
and
specificity,
degree,
external
argument
structure and,
possibly,
verbal
parameters,
which are
however not
very
significant
for Italian
de-adjectival
nominalisation;
semantic
parameters
include
referent
animacy, the
distinction
between the
nominalisation
of the
adjectival
'argument' vs.
the
nominalisation
of the
adjective
itself e.g.,
softie `a
thing which is
soft' vs.
softness and
the semantic
type of
property
concepts e.g.,
PHYSICAL
PROPERTY or
HUMAN
PROPENSITY.<br>
</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">So,
possible
questions are
as following:</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">1.
Can property
concepts be
turned into
nouns?</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">2.
Which
strategies are
employed for
this purpose?</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">3.
Which
parameters do
de-adjectival
nouns display?</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">4.
Are there any
missing values
for a given
parameter? For
instance,
de-adjectival
nouns can be
only singular
or definite or
restricted to
the subject
position.</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">5.
Are
de-adjectival
nouns found in
both semantic
types of
nominalization?
For instance,
I have
observed that
European
languages
focus on the
nominalisation
of the
adjective
itself, while
argument
nominalizations
are scarcely
attested,
limited to
certain
language
varieties and
not stable in
the lexicon.</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">(needless
to say,
questions 2 to
4 can have
multiple
answers,
helping to
describe
different
patterns of
property
nominalisation)<br>
</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">Thanks
in advance for
your help, all
the best.</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">Luigi</font></div>
<font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif"><br
clear="all">
</font>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">--
<br>
</font>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">PhD
Program in
Linguistics
('Scienze
Linguistiche')<br>
University of
Bergamo and
University of
Pavia - Italy</font></div>
</div>
<font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif"><br>
</font>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif"> <br>
</font></div>
</div>
<span><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">
<pre>_______________________________________________
Lingtyp mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
</pre>
</font></span></blockquote>
<span><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif"
color="#888888"><br>
<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B49-3641686834" value="+493641686834" target="_blank">+49-3641686834</a>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B62-82238009215" value="+6282238009215" target="_blank">+62-82238009215</a>
</pre>
</font></span></div>
<font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp
mailing list<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a></a><br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></a><br>
<br>
</font></blockquote>
</div>
<font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif"><br>
<br
clear="all">
</font>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">--
<br>
</font>
<div><font
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">PhD
Program in
Linguistics
('Scienze
Linguistiche')<br>
University of
Bergamo and
University of
Pavia - Italy</font></div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
Lingtyp mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B49-3641686834" value="+493641686834" target="_blank">+49-3641686834</a>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B62-82238009215" value="+6282238009215" target="_blank">+62-82238009215</a>
</pre>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a></a><br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></a><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<hr> <font face="Arial"
color="Gray" size="2">CONFIDENTIALITY:
This email is intended solely
for the person(s) named and
may be confidential and/or
privileged. If you are not the
intended recipient, please
delete it, notify us and do
not copy, use, or disclose its
contents.<br>
Towards a sustainable earth:
Print only when necessary.
Thank you.</font> </blockquote>
<br>
<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B49-3641686834" value="+493641686834" target="_blank">+49-3641686834</a>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B62-82238009215" value="+6282238009215" target="_blank">+62-82238009215</a>
</pre>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
</font></span></div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
</font></span></blockquote>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> <br>
<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B49-3641686834" value="+493641686834" target="_blank">+49-3641686834</a>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B62-82238009215" value="+6282238009215" target="_blank">+62-82238009215</a>
</pre>
</font></span></div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> </font></span></div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> </font></span></blockquote>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> </font></span></div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> <br>
</font></span></div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> </font></span></blockquote>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> <br>
<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B49-3641686834" value="+493641686834" target="_blank">+49-3641686834</a>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B62-82238009215" value="+6282238009215" target="_blank">+62-82238009215</a>
</pre>
</font></span></div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): +49-3641686834
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-82238009215
</pre>
</body>
</html>