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Bernhard Waelchli wrote:<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:4d002fbf-6d0c-6e3b-592b-1b6c960adcbe@ling.su.se"
type="cite">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I cannot see how “genifier” and
“genification” can help us understand, for instance, why
“class/gender hotbeds and numeral classification hotbeds almost
never overlap” (Nichols 1992: 139). </div>
</blockquote>
<br>
This is easy to answer: Before we can ask the "why" question, we
must be sure that the claim is true, and minimally we must have a
testable hypothesis. Nichols (1992) refers to Corbett's (1991)
definition of "gender", but in more recent work, Corbett has
abandoned this definition, which distinguished strictly between
gender and numeral classifiers. <br>
<br>
Likewise, Greenberg (1963) has eight universals about gender – in
what sense of the term 'gender' might these universals be true?<br>
<br>
I have not seen any definition of "gender" (or "noun class") in the
recent literature that might allow us to support or refute these
earlier claims.<br>
<br>
Everyone agrees that technical terms should ideally have the same
meaning across the discipline (thus allowing us to evaluate each
other's claims), but how do we get there?<br>
<br>
One approach is to extend the meaning of an earlier term, e.g.
"classifier" to mean (what I called) 'genifier' (as suggested by
Sasha Aikhenvald and Ruth Singer). But changing the meaning of an
existing term leads to polysemy (and thus confusion), and it leads
to discontinuity with the earlier literature. Until the new sense is
established, one always needs to explain in which sense one uses a
polysemous term, and because the earlier literature does not go
away, the new sense may never catch on. (And when Sasha publishes an
article called "Classifiers and noun classes", one wonders whether
classifiers are really supposed to include noun classes / genders.)<br>
<br>
Another term is "noun categorization device", which Sasha seems to
use in the same sense as "classifier (in the broad sense)". The main
problem with this is that it is vague in its reference (does it
refer to the entire system? so would a gender marker be a kind of
noun categorization device marker? or does it refer to a marker,
such as a classifier?), and it would be nicer to have a shorter term
(maybe simply "noun categorizor" as a cover term for classifier and
gender marker?).<br>
<br>
It seem to me that the only problem with my proposed term "genifier"
is that it is new. Speakers often react negatively to new words
(morphologists call this "neophobia"), which is an interesting
phenomenon in itself.<br>
<br>
But in science, we should not be distracted by emotional reactions
(though they give some liveliness to Lingtyp discussions, so thanks
to Sasha for this!). We have many more concepts than everyday life
requires, so it is natural that we need many more terms. (And
depending on one's taste, one may prefer abbreviations like
Bernhard's SAESS – it may well be that people have fewer emotional
reactions to them. I prefer Latinate neologisms, also because they
allow derivations, such as "genification" and "genificatory", or
even the verb "genify".)<br>
<br>
Best wishes,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:4d002fbf-6d0c-6e3b-592b-1b6c960adcbe@ling.su.se"
type="cite">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear typologists,<br>
<br>
Cross-linguistic terminology (comparative concepts) should be
both clear and conform to the tradition, in order to preserve
continuity with the older literature.<br>
<br>
In the case of the terms "gender" and "classifier", it seems
that these two goals cannot be achieved simultaneously without
coining a new term ("genifier").<br>
<br>
There is quite a bit of general literature on gender/classifiers
(e.g. Dixon 1986; Grinevald 2000; Aikhenvald 2000; Seifart 2010;
Corbett & Fedden 2016), but none of these works provide
clear definitions of these terms, and the more recent literature
(e.g. Corbett & Fedden, and also Seifart & Payne 2007)
actually emphasizes that there is no reason to say that gender
markers and classifiers are distinct phenomena in the world's
languages.<br>
<br>
Thus, it seems to me that we need the new term "genifier",
perhaps defined as follows:<br>
<br>
A genifier system is a system of grammatical markers which occur
on nominal modifiers, predicates or anaphoric pronouns, and each
of which expresses (i.e. normally reflects, but sometimes
contributes) a broad property other than person and number of
the controlling noun (i.e. for nominal modifiers: the
modificatum, for predicates: an argument, for anaphoric
pronouns: the antecedent).<br>
<br>
The alternative to coining a new term, it seems to me, would be
to extend the meaning of the term "gender" or of the term
"classifier" in such a way that there would be no more
continuity with the earlier literature.<br>
<br>
Given the above definition of genifier, we can perhaps define
"gender" and "numeral classifier" as follows (as arbitrary
subcategories of genifiers, defined just to preserve continuity
with the older literature):<br>
<br>
A gender system (= a system of gender markers) is a system of
genifiers which includes no more than 20 genifiers and which is
not restricted to numeral modifiers.<br>
<br>
A numeral classifier system is a system of genifiers which is
restricted to numeral (plus optionally other adnominal)
modifiers.<br>
<br>
I wonder if the above definitions have any obvious defects, i.e.
any cases that everyone would call gender or numeral classifier
and that wouldn't fall under the definitions, or cases that fall
under them and that nobody would call gender or numeral
classifier.<br>
<br>
Note that the new term "genifier" also has the advantage that
the whole domain can be called genification (rather than the
cumbersome "noun classification/nominal classification", which
is also vague because there are all kinds of "classes" or
"classifications" of nouns which have nothing to do with
genifiers).<br>
<br>
Any comments?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Martin</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:4d002fbf-6d0c-6e3b-592b-1b6c960adcbe@ling.su.se"
type="cite">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Then, it is actually the anaphoric
use of gender which is most easily amenable to functional
notions - and focusing on noun classing detracts us from the
anaphoric use of gender. (There is, of course, also the
agreement vs. index debate, which does not make things easier.
But it is a debate for gender, not for numeral classifiers.)
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best wishes</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bernhard </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">References:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="Default"
style="margin-left:14.2pt;text-indent:-14.2pt">Hockett, C. F.
1958. A Course in Modern Linguistics. New York: Macmillan.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nichols, Johanna. 1992. Linguistic
Diversity in Space and Time. Chicago: Chicago University
Press.</p>
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<blockquote cite="mid:58CFEFA0.7060701@shh.mpg.de" type="cite">
Dear typologists,<br>
<br>
Cross-linguistic terminology (comparative concepts) should be
both clear and conform to the tradition, in order to preserve
continuity with the older literature.<br>
<br>
In the case of the terms "gender" and "classifier", it seems
that these two goals cannot be achieved simultaneously without
coining a new term ("genifier").<br>
<br>
There is quite a bit of general literature on gender/classifiers
(e.g. Dixon 1986; Grinevald 2000; Aikhenvald 2000; Seifart 2010;
Corbett & Fedden 2016), but none of these works provide
clear definitions of these terms, and the more recent literature
(e.g. Corbett & Fedden, and also Seifart & Payne 2007)
actually emphasizes that there is no reason to say that gender
markers and classifiers are distinct phenomena in the world's
languages.<br>
<br>
Thus, it seems to me that we need the new term "genifier",
perhaps defined as follows:<br>
<br>
A genifier system is a system of grammatical markers which occur
on nominal modifiers, predicates or anaphoric pronouns, and each
of which expresses (i.e. normally reflects, but sometimes
contributes) a broad property other than person and number of
the controlling noun (i.e. for nominal modifiers: the
modificatum, for predicates: an argument, for anaphoric
pronouns: the antecedent).<br>
<br>
The alternative to coining a new term, it seems to me, would be
to extend the meaning of the term "gender" or of the term
"classifier" in such a way that there would be no more
continuity with the earlier literature.<br>
<br>
Given the above definition of genifier, we can perhaps define
"gender" and "numeral classifier" as follows (as arbitrary
subcategories of genifiers, defined just to preserve continuity
with the older literature):<br>
<br>
A gender system (= a system of gender markers) is a system of
genifiers which includes no more than 20 genifiers and which is
not restricted to numeral modifiers.<br>
<br>
A numeral classifier system is a system of genifiers which is
restricted to numeral (plus optionally other adnominal)
modifiers.<br>
<br>
I wonder if the above definitions have any obvious defects, i.e.
any cases that everyone would call gender or numeral classifier
and that wouldn't fall under the definitions, or cases that fall
under them and that nobody would call gender or numeral
classifier.<br>
<br>
Note that the new term "genifier" also has the advantage that
the whole domain can be called genification (rather than the
cumbersome "noun classification/nominal classification", which
is also vague because there are all kinds of "classes" or
"classifications" of nouns which have nothing to do with
genifiers).<br>
<br>
Any comments?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bernhard Wälchli
Stockholms universitet
Institutionen för lingvistik
SE - 106 91 Stockholm
Tel +46 8 16 23 44 </pre>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
IPF 141199
Nikolaistrasse 6-10
D-04109 Leipzig
</pre>
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