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Dear all,<br>
<br>
Not a substantive comment on gender, numeral classifiers and their
ilk, but rather a general meta-comment on terminology. I strongly
agree with Martin when he says (as he has many times in the past)
that, rather than having too much terminology in our field, we
actually have too little, with a single term often referring to
multiple concepts, while other concepts remain orphans lacking any
agreed-upon term to denote them. Which is why I also strongly
support his repeated attempts to clear up the mess, even though it
invariably involves making up funny-sounding new words (as indeed,
all words sound, when heard for the first time).<br>
<br>
Of course, many or most of us became linguists because of a love for
language and languages, and often more specifically for words.
Which is why words often trigger emotional responses in us, just
like they do in laymen. Still, as linguists, we ought to be able to
see beyond such emotional responses when evaluating proposals for
new terminology. If you don't like the word "genifier" propose a
better one, and we'll wait and see which one wins out and gains
currency. Or if you don't like the concept behind the proposed
"genifier", take up Martin's plea and explain why his definition
needs to be modified.<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 21/03/2017 07:00, Alexandra
Aikhenvald wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
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dir="ltr">
<p>Dear Ruth</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Are you familiar with my book Classifiers: a typology of noun
categorization devices (OUP, 2000/2003)? It contains a
comprehensive typology of noun categorization devices and show
clearly that a dichotomy of genders/noun classes versus
classifiers (as advocated by a few people) is obsolete. </p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>It also introduced the idea of a split gender system
(different subsystems of genders depending on agreement
targets) found in many languages, and outlined a typology of
languiages with classifiers in multiple envronments (e.g.
possessive, verbal, deictic - etc).</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>It is a long book (Marcin Kilarski and Ellen Contini-Morava
read it and took account of it); main points have been
summarized in the encyclopedia article (which is enclosed).</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>An additional summary is found in my Chapter on 'A typology
of noun categorization devices' forthcoming (due March 2017)
within The Cambridge Handbook of Linguistic typology, ed by
Aikhenvald and Dixon (Cambridge University Press). I enclose a
proof copy here. CUP is now thinking of organizing a launch of
this book at the ALT meeting.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>The term classifier is useful (I myself and other people -
Denny, Dixon, and further respectable scholars published a lot
on it). It can be used to refer to phenomena other than noun
categorization devices (as in Athabaskan linguistics, in some
Australian studies, and - well, discussion of Thai by Mary
Haas - you will find these mentioned at the very beginning of
my book). It does not refer to a disparate set of phenomena -
unless one engages in rather futile reinterpretation of terms
etc.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I also enclose the most recent version of Oxford Bibliography
online on classifiers (if you have any comments, please send
them to me - I will be doing another revision this year). And
also the biblio on Arawak languages - they are excellent for
lovers on noun categorization devices, most of them having two
(rarer three) genders in cross-referencing/personal pronouns
and largish systems of classifiers/noun classes in other
environment. They have been described as such since before
2000.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>The term 'genifier' - what a horror! On the other hand, we
live in a free world, and people are free to twist the
language as they wish. A young relative of Bob Dixon's once
suggested that a putative blend of a dog with a rabbit should
be called either dabbit or rog. So 'genifier' is perhaps part
of this 'roggish'/'dabbitish' exercise. Excellent for a
six-year old!</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Regards</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Sasha</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div id="Signature">
<p class="ecxMsoPlainText"><span>Alexandra Y. Aikhenvald, PhD,
DLitt, FAHA </span>
</p>
<p class="ecxMsoPlainText"><span>Distinguished Professor and
Australian Laureate Fellow</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoPlainText"><span>Director of the Language and
Culture Research Centre</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoPlainText"><span>James Cook University</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoPlainText"><span>PO Box 6811, Cairns,
Queensland 4870, Australia</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoPlainText"><span><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.jcu.edu.au/faess/JCUPRD_043649.html">http://www.jcu.edu.au/faess/JCUPRD_043649.html</a></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoPlainText"><span>mobile 0400 305315, office
61-7-40421117</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoPlainText"><span>fax 61-7-4042 1880
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.aikhenvaldlinguistics.com/">http://www.aikhenvaldlinguistics.com/</a></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoPlainText"><span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
id="LPNoLP"
href="https://research.jcu.edu.au/researchatjcu/research/lcrc"
target="_blank">https://research.jcu.edu.au/researchatjcu/research/lcrc</a></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoPlainText"><span></span></p>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<hr tabindex="-1" style="width: 98%; display: inline-block;">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:
11pt;" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
Lingtyp <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>
on behalf of Ruth Singer <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rsinger@unimelb.edu.au"><rsinger@unimelb.edu.au></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 21 March 2017 9:25 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Martin Haspelmath<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] genifiers (gender
markers/classifiers)</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Hi Martin,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I agree, that the gender/classifier distinction is no
longer useful. See also work by Kilarski and
Contini-Morava in this vein:</div>
<div class="gmail-csl-entry">Contini-Morava, Ellen &
Marcin Kilarski. 2013. Functions of nominal
classification. <i>Language Sciences</i> 40. 263–299.
doi:10.1016/j.langsci.2013.03.002.</div>
<span
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.1016%2Fj.langsci.2013.03.002&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.atitle=Functions%20of%20nominal%20classification&rft.jtitle=Language%20Sciences&rft.stitle=Language%20Sciences&rft.volume=40&rft.aufirst=Ellen&rft.aulast=Contini-Morava&rft.au=Ellen%20Contini-Morava&rft.au=Marcin%20Kilarski&rft.date=2013-11&rft.pages=263-299&rft.spage=263&rft.epage=299&rft.issn=0388-0001"
class="gmail-Z3988"></span>
<div>Kilarski, Marcin. 2013. <i>Nominal Classification: a
history of its study from the classical period to the
present.</i> Amsterdam: John Benjamins.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What I've done to solve this terminology issue is to
extend the term 'classifier' to cover any kind of
nominal classification device (Singer 2010, 2012, 2016).
The term 'classifier' is used to cover a pretty
disparate group of phenomena anyhow. The terms 'gender'
and 'numeral classifier' can then be reserved for
subsets of the general category 'classifier' like you
suggest.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This approach fits with Corbett and Fedden's recent
ideas too as they propose gender as a special kind of
nominal classification.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">Corbett, Greville G. &
Sebastian Fedden. 2017. Canonical gender. Journal of
Linguistics(available on CJO June 2015). 1–37.
doi:10.1017/S0022226715000195.</div>
<div style="text-align: left;"><br>
</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">Fedden, Sebastian &
Greville G. Corbett (forthcoming). Genders and
classifiers as concurrent systems: a first typology.</div>
<div style="text-align: left;"><br>
</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">Singer, Ruth. 2010.
Creativity in the use of gender agreement in Mawng: how
the discourse functions of a gender system can approach
those of a classifier system. Studies in Language 34.
382–416.</div>
<div style="text-align: left;"><br>
</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">Singer, Ruth. 2012. Do
nominal classifiers mediate selectional restrictions? an
investigation of the function of semantically-based
nominal classifiers in Mawng (Iwaidjan, Australian).
Linguistics 50. 955–990.</div>
<div style="text-align: left;"><br>
</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">Singer, Ruth. 2016. The
dynamics of nominal classification: productive and
lexicalised uses of gender agreement in Mawng. (Pacific
Linguistics 642). Mouton de Gruyter.
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=34mlCwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PR7&dq=%22dynamics+of+nominal+classification%22&ots=X-IKgrhldm&sig=1721LueyC8yH1M2sQ6gdVvyituM">https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=34mlCwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PR7&dq=%22dynamics+of+nominal+classification%22&ots=X-IKgrhldm&sig=1721LueyC8yH1M2sQ6gdVvyituM</a>.</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 21 March 2017 at 02:05, Martin
Haspelmath <span dir="ltr">
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px
0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color:
rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px;
border-left-style: solid;">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">Dear typologists,<br>
<br>
Cross-linguistic terminology (comparative concepts)
should be both clear and conform to the tradition,
in order to preserve continuity with the older
literature.<br>
<br>
In the case of the terms "gender" and "classifier",
it seems that these two goals cannot be achieved
simultaneously without coining a new term
("genifier").<br>
<br>
There is quite a bit of general literature on
gender/classifiers (e.g. Dixon 1986; Grinevald 2000;
Aikhenvald 2000; Seifart 2010; Corbett & Fedden
2016), but none of these works provide clear
definitions of these terms, and the more recent
literature (e.g. Corbett & Fedden, and also
Seifart & Payne 2007) actually emphasizes that
there is no reason to say that gender markers and
classifiers are distinct phenomena in the world's
languages.<br>
<br>
Thus, it seems to me that we need the new term
"genifier", perhaps defined as follows:<br>
<br>
A <b>genifier system</b> is a system of grammatical
markers which occur on nominal modifiers, predicates
or anaphoric pronouns, and each of which expresses
(i.e. normally reflects, but sometimes contributes)
a broad property other than person and number of the
controlling noun (i.e. for nominal modifiers: the
modificatum, for predicates: an argument, for
anaphoric pronouns: the antecedent).<br>
<br>
The alternative to coining a new term, it seems to
me, would be to extend the meaning of the term
"gender" or of the term "classifier" in such a way
that there would be no more continuity with the
earlier literature.<br>
<br>
Given the above definition of genifier, we can
perhaps define "gender" and "numeral classifier" as
follows (as arbitrary subcategories of genifiers,
defined just to preserve continuity with the older
literature):<br>
<br>
A <b>gender system</b> (= a system of gender
markers) is a system of genifiers which includes no
more than 20 genifiers and which is not restricted
to numeral modifiers.<br>
<br>
A <b>numeral classifier system</b> is a system of
genifiers which is restricted to numeral (plus
optionally other adnominal) modifiers.<br>
<br>
I wonder if the above definitions have any obvious
defects, i.e. any cases that everyone would call
gender or numeral classifier and that wouldn't fall
under the definitions, or cases that fall under them
and that nobody would call gender or numeral
classifier.<br>
<br>
Note that the new term "genifier" also has the
advantage that the whole domain can be called
<b>genification</b> (rather than the cumbersome
"noun classification/nominal classification", which
is also vague because there are all kinds of
"classes" or "classifications" of nouns which have
nothing to do with genifiers).<br>
<br>
Any comments?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
*************************<br>
<br>
References<br>
<br>
<div class="m_-2493704224411356721csl-bib-body"
style="line-height: 1.35; padding-left: 2em;">
<div class="m_-2493704224411356721csl-entry">Aikhenvald,
Alexandra Y. 2000. <i>Classifiers: A typology
of noun categorization devices</i>. Oxford:
Oxford University Press.</div>
<span
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_id=urn%3Aisbn%3A978-0-19-926466-7&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Classifiers%3A%20A%20typology%20of%20noun%20categorization%20devices&rft.place=Oxford&rft.publisher=Oxford%20University%20Press&rft.aufirst=Alexandra%20Y.&rft.aulast=Aikhenvald&rft.au=Alexandra%20Y.%20Aikhenvald&rft.date=2000&rft.isbn=978-0-19-926466-7&rft.language=English"
class="m_-2493704224411356721Z3988"></span>
<div class="m_-2493704224411356721csl-entry">Corbett,
Greville G. & Sebastian Fedden. 2016.
Canonical gender.
<i>Journal of Linguistics</i> 52(3). 495–531. <br>
</div>
<span
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.1017%2FS0022226715000195&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.atitle=Canonical%20gender&rft.jtitle=Journal%20of%20Linguistics&rft.volume=52&rft.issue=3&rft.aufirst=Greville%20G.&rft.aulast=Corbett&rft.au=Greville%20G.%20Corbett&rft.au=Sebastian%20Fedden&rft.date=2016-11&rft.pages=495-531&rft.spage=495&rft.epage=531&rft.issn=0022-2267%2C%201469-7742&rft.language=en"
class="m_-2493704224411356721Z3988"></span>
<div class="m_-2493704224411356721csl-entry">Dixon,
R. M. W. 1986. Noun classes and noun
classification in typological perspective. In
Colette Grinevald Craig (ed.),
<i>Noun classes and categorization</i>, 105–112.
Amsterdam: Benjamins.</div>
<span
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_id=urn%3Aisbn%3A978-0-915027-34-7&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=bookitem&rft.atitle=Noun%20classes%20and%20noun%20classification%20in%20typological%20perspective&rft.place=Amsterdam&rft.publisher=Benjamins&rft.aufirst=Colette%20Grinevald&rft.aulast=Craig&rft.au=Colette%20Grinevald%20Craig&rft.au=R.%20M.%20W.%20Dixon&rft.date=1986&rft.pages=105-112&rft.spage=105&rft.epage=112&rft.isbn=978-0-915027-34-7&rft.language=English"
class="m_-2493704224411356721Z3988"></span>
<div class="m_-2493704224411356721csl-entry">Grinevald,
Colette G. 2000. A morphosyntactic typology of
classifiers. In Gunter Senft (ed.),
<i>Systems of nominal classification</i>, 50–92.
Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.</div>
<span
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=bookitem&rft.atitle=A%20morphosyntactic%20typology%20of%20classifiers&rft.place=Cambridge&rft.publisher=Cambridge%20University%20Press&rft.aufirst=Gunter&rft.aulast=Senft&rft.au=Gunter%20Senft&rft.au=Colette%20G.%20Grinevald&rft.date=2000&rft.pages=50-92&rft.spage=50&rft.epage=92"
class="m_-2493704224411356721Z3988"></span>
<div class="m_-2493704224411356721csl-entry">Seifart,
Frank. 2010. Nominal classification.
<i>Language and Linguistics Compass</i> 4(8).
719–736. <br>
</div>
<span
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.1111%2Fj.1749-818X.2010.00194.x&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.atitle=Nominal%20classification&rft.jtitle=Language%20and%20Linguistics%20Compass&rft.volume=4&rft.issue=8&rft.aufirst=Frank&rft.aulast=Seifart&rft.au=Frank%20Seifart&rft.date=2010-08-01&rft.pages=719-736&rft.spage=719&rft.epage=736&rft.issn=1749-818X&rft.language=en"
class="m_-2493704224411356721Z3988"></span>
<div class="m_-2493704224411356721csl-entry">Seifart,
Frank & Doris L. Payne. 2007. Nominal
classification in the North West Amazon: Issues
in areal diffusion and typological
characterization.
<i>International Journal of American Linguistics</i>
73(4). 381–387.</div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><span
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.atitle=Nominal%20classification%20in%20the%20North%20West%20Amazon%3A%20Issues%20in%20areal%20diffusion%20and%20typological%20characterization&rft.jtitle=International%20Journal%20of%20American%20Linguistics&rft.volume=73&rft.issue=4&rft.aufirst=Frank&rft.aulast=Seifart&rft.au=Frank%20Seifart&rft.au=Doris%20L.%20Payne&rft.date=2007&rft.pages=381%E2%80%93387"
class="m_-2493704224411356721Z3988"></span></font></span></div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<pre class="m_-2493704224411356721moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath (<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_-2493704224411356721moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
IPF 141199
Nikolaistrasse 6-10
D-04109 Leipzig
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<div dir="ltr">Dr Ruth Singer</div>
<div dir="ltr">DECRA Postdoctoral Fellow<br>
Linguistics Program / Research Unit
for Indigenous Language<br>
School of Languages and Linguistics<br>
Faculty of Arts<br>
University of Melbourne 3010<br>
Tel. +61 3 90353774<br>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): +49-3641686834
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81281162816
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