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<p>Dear Martin, dear all,</p>
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<p>this is an exciting discussion.</p>
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<p>First of all, I fully agree with Randy:</p>
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<p><<<<span lang="it"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman,serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;">Whenever we make a higher abstraction we are moving one more step away from the facts of the languages. The terms “gender” and “noun classifier” are already abstractions
across a range of different phenomena, and so there is some loss of information about the diversity of forms when we use such terms, and if we then make a categorial merger of these two forms, as suggested, we then lose even more information.</span></font></span>>>></p>
<p>We are not in a position to really understand how the different manifestations of "genifiers" are connected and we would certainly lose an enormous amount of information if we just look at whether a language is [±genifier]. In spite of this, a cover term
would be useful. I actually wonder why not just talk about "<b>class markers</b>"?<br>
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<p>I also think that we should take Mark's idea of looking at different functions very seriously. This looks to me like a potential semantic map for checking what functions individual "class markers/genifiers" can express. In some languages, they can express
a lot of functions (cf. Sasha Aikhenvald's "multiple classifier languages"). <br>
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<p>I would also like to thank Ruth for her references - I am looking forward to reading these publications.</p>
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<p>Best wishes,</p>
<p>Walter<br>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Paolo Ramat <paoram@unipv.it><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 22, 2017 11:43:43 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Siva Kalyan; Elisa Roma<br>
<b>Cc:</b> lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] R: genifiers (gender markers/classifiers)</font>
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<div>According to the excellent remarks by Elisa Roma why do not create the neologism
<em>regrouper </em>from the verb <em>to regroup </em>“reassemble or cause to reassemble into organized groups”?</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Paolo</div>
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<div> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">Prof.Paolo Ramat<br>
Università di Pavia (retired)<br>
Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia, retired)<br>
Societas Linguist. Europ., Honorary Member<br>
<br>
Piazzetta Arduino 11<br>
I – 27100 Pavia<br>
##39 347 044 98 44 (port.)<br>
##39 0382 27 0 27 (home)</div>
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<div style="font-color: black"><b>From:</b> <a title="sivakalyan.princeton@gmail.com" href="mailto:sivakalyan.princeton@gmail.com">
Siva Kalyan</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 22, 2017 10:58 AM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="frisella@iol.it" href="mailto:frisella@iol.it">Elisa Roma</a>
</div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a title="lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">
lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] R: genifiers (gender markers/classifiers)</div>
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Would “tagger” work? It’s in the same semantic neighbourhood as “classifier” and <i>
raggruppatore</i>; isn’t already used in grammatical theory (as far as I know); and has a suitably 21st-century ring to it :). It does of course have an existing usage in computational linguistics (e.g. “part-of-speech tagger”); but I think there’s little risk
of confusion with this usage.
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<div>The hyperonym for “gender” and “class” would thus be “tag”.<br>
<div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<span style="WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FLOAT: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT: 12px helvetica; DISPLAY: inline !important; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">Siva</span>
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<div>On 22 Mar 2017, at 8:16 pm, Elisa Roma <<a href="mailto:frisella@iol.it">frisella@iol.it</a>> wrote:</div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Dear Martin, dear typologists,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">thank you for this discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><o:p></o:p></span> </div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">I had a similar reaction to Sebastian Nordhoff’s, that is I felt (and feel) that the word genifier is too easily connected to genes. In fact looking at the way it was coined
I had imagined, for what is worth, exactly the same alternatives, clander or clender. The morphological problem with genifier is that it is meant to be a blend, but in fact it’s made up as (or homonymous with) a derivative. I had also thought that speakers
of Romance languages may be more sensitive about this problem, but this may not be the case.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Still, there is the semantic problem, because brunch and smog are not hyperonyms, as has already been noted.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><o:p></o:p></span> </div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">IF we need a hyperonym as Martin has argued, but others have questioned, I feel that anyway this is not a very good one, and not simply for neophobic issues. As I am not
a native speaker I feel somewhat uncomfortable in coining English words. If I had to coin something for what Martin has defined I’d use Italian raggruppatore (possibly to be translated with English grouper?). A raggruppatore is something that (generally) groups
together (nouns in grammatical or semantic categories, but also words in phrases, referents in pragmatical kinds,…), like a sheep-dog does with sheep. Perhaps it’s too general a term, but that may have the advantage of not encouraging its (ab)use in descriptions
, something which Randy La Polla has warned us against.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">But we’ll have to look at new generations of linguists to see what happens with new words. So, I have to step out.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><o:p></o:p></span> </div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">All the best,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Elisa<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><o:p></o:p></span> </div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">P.S. I asked my husband what could a word like genifier refer to for linguists and he said: “Genitive”.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><o:p></o:p></span> </div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><o:p></o:p></span> </div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Elisa Roma, PhD<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">General and Celtic Linguistics<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Dipartimento di Studi Umanistici<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Università di Pavia<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Italia<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><a style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline; COLOR: purple" href="mailto:elisa.roma@unipv.it"><span style="COLOR: rgb(5,99,193)">elisa.roma@unipv.it</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><o:p></o:p></span> </div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><o:p></o:p></span> </div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><o:p></o:p></span> </div>
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<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif">Da:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Lingtyp [<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>Per
conto di<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Johanna NICHOLS<br>
<b>Inviato:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>mercoledì 22 marzo 2017 06.08<br>
<b>A:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Randy John LaPolla (Prof) <<a href="mailto:RandyLaPolla@ntu.edu.sg">RandyLaPolla@ntu.edu.sg</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Oggetto:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Lingtyp] genifiers (gender markers/classifiers)<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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Where, oh where, is the generation that gave us terms like "pied piping"? We need that kind of creativity now.<o:p></o:p></p>
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Johanna Nichols<o:p></o:p></div>
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On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 7:42 PM, Randy John LaPolla (Prof) <<a style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline; COLOR: purple" href="mailto:RandyLaPolla@ntu.edu.sg" target="_blank">RandyLaPolla@ntu.edu.sg</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div>
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Hi All,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></div>
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Thanks to Sebastian, Walter, and Mark for bringing up important points. I also feel there are structural and functional differences between genders and “noun classifiers”. I put the latter in scare quotes because it is as Mark said, they aren’t really classifying
the noun, but are specifying the referent of the noun, and so the same noun can take different classifiers in many cases depending on the referent involved. In some uses they are actually referential themselves, and so can also be modified in some languages.<o:p></o:p></div>
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But my main reason for writing is to mention that this discussion is relevant to our discussion last year about classification in typology and language description.<o:p></o:p></div>
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Whenever we make a higher abstraction we are moving one more step away from the facts of the languages. The terms “gender” and “noun classifier” are already abstractions across a range of different phenomena, and so there is some loss of information about the
diversity of forms when we use such terms, and if we then make a categorial merger of these two forms, as suggested, we then lose even more information. It may be that some typologists find this useful, and are willing to pay this price to be able to make
grand generalisations, but the loss of information must be kept in mind, and there is also the danger that this usage filters back into descriptions of languages. We already have the case of the introduction of “converb”, which was a categorial merger of different
types of non-finite verb constructions that may have been useful for some people, but what happened is that some people doing descriptions of languages now feel it is enough to say something is a converb construction without going into the details of what
sort of converb it is. So we have a loss of information in the descriptions as well.<o:p></o:p></div>
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As a number of people said, it may be we don’t have enough terminology in linguistics, but for me it is a lack of terms for doing fine-grained analysis of actual linguistic structures, not a lack of terms for high level abstractions that obscure the diversity
of actual structures.<o:p></o:p></div>
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If one wants to talk about these types together, I recommend keeping something like “noun classification devices” (even though as I said they aren’t necessarily classifying the noun, but the referent) because it is transparent and also has the plural marker,
keeping us aware that we are talking about a plurality of devices and not one single type. The fact that it is not short and catchy will also help prevent the problem of it being used as a descriptive label.<o:p></o:p></div>
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<o:p></o:p> </div>
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Randy<o:p></o:p></div>
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<span class="m5709932468916639368apple-style-span"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); BACKGROUND-COLOR: white">-----</span></span><o:p></o:p></div>
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<b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); BACKGROUND-COLOR: white">Prof. Randy J. LaPolla, PhD FAHA</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); BACKGROUND-COLOR: white"> </span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); BACKGROUND-COLOR: white">（羅仁地）</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); BACKGROUND-COLOR: white">|
Division of Linguistics and Multilingual Studies | Nanyang Technological University</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(34,34,34)"><br>
<span class="m5709932468916639368apple-style-span"><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: white">HSS-03-45, 14 Nanyang Drive, Singapore 637332 | Tel: (65) 6592-1825 GMT+8h | Fax: (65) 6795-6525 |<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline; COLOR: purple" href="http://randylapolla.net/" target="_blank">http://randylapolla.net/</a></span></span></span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span class="m5709932468916639368apple-style-span"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); BACKGROUND-COLOR: white">Most recent book:</span></span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); BACKGROUND-COLOR: white"><a style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline; COLOR: purple" href="https://www.routledge.com/The-Sino-Tibetan-Languages-2nd-Edition/LaPolla-Thurgood/p/book/9781138783324" target="_blank">https://www.routledge.com/The-Sino-Tibetan-Languages-2nd-Edition/LaPolla-Thurgood/p/book/9781138783324</a></span><o:p></o:p></div>
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On 22 Mar 2017, at 7:25 AM, Mark W. Post <<a style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline; COLOR: purple" href="mailto:markwpost@gmail.com" target="_blank">markwpost@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div>
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<o:p></o:p> </div>
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Martin/All -<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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As others have already pointed out, there are two related issues here, one terminological and the other typological. I consider the terminological issue pretty trivial - I certainly agree that we have less terminology than we need for the number of concepts
that we want to talk about in a more-or-less contrastive way, and while I'm willing to bet that even those of us who share this view probably blanched (at least initially) at the sight of the term "genifier", at the end of the day it doesn't matter - "grammaticalization"
has more suffixes than it needs, and if you unpack them all they don't actually add up to what we use the term to mean, but the world keeps turning regardless.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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But I'd take issue with the motivation for a categorical merger in the first place (which is what I take the introduction of a superordinate label to amount to - if that's wrong, then I've misunderstood something). It seems to me that most of the literature
on classifiers focuses on the semantic dimension of classification, probably because this is what stands out as exotic from a European perspective - and, indeed, the label "classifier" itself suggests this. And it's the semantic dimension that is mostly being
focused on when an alignment between gender systems and classifier systems is proposed - even, and especially, when superordinate labels like "noun classification" are proposed. But this is only part of the story. The *function* of classifiers - and here,
I *only* mean the "numeral classifiers" of Greater Mainland Southeast Asia - is not classification, but referential specification. They function, that is, to individuate entities as instances of types. That is why the most frequently-used classifier by far
in Mandarin Chinese, for example, is (almost) semantically empty, and cliticizes to demonstratives and the numeral 'one' in most mentions. Other languages take matters further, by deputizing the generic classifier itself as a de facto indefinite article -
consider, for example, Nuoso Yi (data from Liu and Gu 2011 DOI:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline; COLOR: purple" href="http://dx.doi.org/10.1075/tsl.96.11liu" target="_blank">10.1075/tsl.96.11liu</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>-
apologies if the glosses don't align properly).<o:p></o:p></p>
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i33ti34 gu33 ʑo33 si44 la33 .<br>
coat CL catch take come <span class="Apple-converted-space">
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‘Bring a coat (to me).’<o:p></o:p></p>
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Hence the frequent observation that languages with classifiers tend to lack articles (though it's true that they don't always).<o:p></o:p></p>
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Given these facts, it seems that there's an at least equal argument in favor of merging classifiers with other referential markers, and in particular articles, so: clarticles? classicles? artifiers? Hmmm...<o:p></o:p></p>
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It seems to me that what we're really talking about here is the same thing that we usually talk about, which is that there are no cross-linguistically watertight categories, but we want to do typology anyway, so what do we do? We can select a semantic parameter
(a "comparative concept") in terms of which categories may be similar across languages, but they will differ in other respects. If we focus on those other respects, we can end up with a different typology. It may be that the real difficulty here is that our
traditional category-labels, and the categories they are designed to capture, are multi-dimensional.<o:p></o:p></p>
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Mark<o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p></o:p> </p>
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On 22/03/2017 8:34 AM, Sebastian Nordhoff wrote:<o:p></o:p></div>
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<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">And the term “gen-ifier” is completely parallel to “class-ifier” – it’s<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">a marker that puts a noun in a genus.<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">if "genifier" is used to put a noun in a *genus*, it is out as a marker<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">for the superordinate concept encompassing both noun class and gender.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Best<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Sebastian<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
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<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">(Actually, since English distinguishes between “gender” and “genus”, one<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">might even introduce “genus” as a new feature term, a cover term for<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">gender and classifierhood. That would certainly be found more acceptable<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">to neophobics than "clender".)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Martin<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">On 21.03.17 20:38, Sebastian Nordhoff wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">as someone who has not worked extensively on either of these concepts, I<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">still have to say that the term "genifier" strikes me as odd. My first<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">thought upon seeing the subject of the mail was "OK, this will be about<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">making something a gender, or a gene, or a knee-like thing maybe, let's<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">see". I was misled by terms such as "intensifier", used to make<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">something more intense, and certainly also, albeit more on phonological<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">grounds, by "gentrification", which is a widely debated topic where I<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">live.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">The attempt to blend "GEnder" and "classiFIER" is not successful in my<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">view, as "-fier" is not really the important formative here; "class" is.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">If there is a desire for a blend, I would rather go for "Clender" or<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">"Clander", which would not lead to misparsings/misinterpretations as the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">one I had.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">As a final note, a "classifier" does something to an X, while "gender"<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">is a property of an X.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">(1) /ladida/ is of gender X<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">(2) ?/ladida/ is of classifier X<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">(3) ?/-dada/ is a gender<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">(4) /-dada/ is a classifier<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">It is unclear to me whether the two concepts "gender" and "classifier"<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">do actually have a superordinate concept. Possibly, one has to use<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">"gender marker" and "classifier", or "noun class" and "gender" as<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">subordinate concepts to arrive at a good superordinate concept.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Best wishes<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Sebastian<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
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<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
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<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">On 03/20/2017 04:05 PM, Martin Haspelmath wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Dear typologists,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Cross-linguistic terminology (comparative concepts) should be both clear<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">and conform to the tradition, in order to preserve continuity with the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">older literature.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">In the case of the terms "gender" and "classifier", it seems that these<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">two goals cannot be achieved simultaneously without coining a new term<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">("genifier").<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">There is quite a bit of general literature on gender/classifiers (e.g.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Dixon 1986; Grinevald 2000; Aikhenvald 2000; Seifart 2010; Corbett &<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Fedden 2016), but none of these works provide clear definitions of these<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">terms, and the more recent literature (e.g. Corbett & Fedden, and also<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Seifart & Payne 2007) actually emphasizes that there is no reason to say<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">that gender markers and classifiers are distinct phenomena in the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">world's languages.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Thus, it seems to me that we need the new term "genifier", perhaps<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">defined as follows:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">A *genifier system* is a system of grammatical markers which occur on<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">nominal modifiers, predicates or anaphoric pronouns, and each of which<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">expresses (i.e. normally reflects, but sometimes contributes) a broad<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">property other than person and number of the controlling noun (i.e. for<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">nominal modifiers: the modificatum, for predicates: an argument, for<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">anaphoric pronouns: the antecedent).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">The alternative to coining a new term, it seems to me, would be to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">extend the meaning of the term "gender" or of the term "classifier" in<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">such a way that there would be no more continuity with the earlier<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">literature.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Given the above definition of genifier, we can perhaps define "gender"<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">and "numeral classifier" as follows (as arbitrary subcategories of<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">genifiers, defined just to preserve continuity with the older<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">literature):<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">A *gender system* (= a system of gender markers) is a system of<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">genifiers which includes no more than 20 genifiers and which is not<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">restricted to numeral modifiers.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">A *numeral classifier system* is a system of genifiers which is<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">restricted to numeral (plus optionally other adnominal) modifiers.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">I wonder if the above definitions have any obvious defects, i.e. any<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">cases that everyone would call gender or numeral classifier and that<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">wouldn't fall under the definitions, or cases that fall under them and<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">that nobody would call gender or numeral classifier.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Note that the new term "genifier" also has the advantage that the whole<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">domain can be called *genification* (rather than the cumbersome "noun<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">classification/nominal classification", which is also vague because<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">there are all kinds of "classes" or "classifications" of nouns which<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">have nothing to do with genifiers).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Any comments?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Martin<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">*************************<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">References<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o:p></o:p> </pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Aikhenvald, Alexandra Y. 2000. /Classifiers: A typology of noun<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">categorization devices/. Oxford: Oxford University Press.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Corbett, Greville G. & Sebastian Fedden. 2016. Canonical gender.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">/Journal of Linguistics/ 52(3). 495--531.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Dixon, R. M. W. 1986. Noun classes and noun classification in<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">typological perspective. In Colette Grinevald Craig (ed.), /Noun classes<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">and categorization/, 105--112. Amsterdam: Benjamins.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Grinevald, Colette G. 2000. A morphosyntactic typology of classifiers.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">In Gunter Senft (ed.), /Systems of nominal classification/, 50--92.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Seifart, Frank. 2010. Nominal classification. /Language and Linguistics<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Compass/ 4(8). 719--736.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Seifart, Frank & Doris L. Payne. 2007. Nominal classification in the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">North West Amazon: Issues in areal diffusion and typological<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">characterization. /International Journal of American Linguistics/ 73(4).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">381--387.<o:p></o:p></pre>
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