<div dir="ltr">Thank you Martin.<div><br></div><div>I'm sorry, I phrased myself poorly. </div><div><br></div><div>What I was trying to get at were grammatical features of languages of the pacific that reveals a higher resolved picture of the diversity than our current more global and more "bland" set of features from Grambank does, and I would argue many of WALS feature do as well.</div><div><br></div><div>I agree, there's a lot of interesting features in this realm. The other relevant consideration is features that are commonly described in grammars of languages in the pacific, a perhaps boring and unwanted condition but unfortunately nonetheless relevant, unless we used other methods to fill in surveys besides reading grammars.<br><br>I already noticed that the term oceania was confusing. I take it to mean Melanesia + Micronesia + Polynesia, i.e. including lots of non-austronesian languages of near oceania (near oceania = PNG, west papua, Solomons and remote oceania = the rest + reef islands + santa cruz).<br><br>Let's maybe switch to the more encompassing and vague term "pacific" for this thread?</div><div><br></div><div>/Hedvig</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:9pt"><b><br></b></span></p><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:9pt"><b>***</b></span></p><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"><b>Tōfā soifua,</b></font></p><div><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><b><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Hedvig Skirgård</font></b></p><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:9pt"><b><br></b>PhD Candidate<br><span style="color:rgb(196,89,17)">The Wellsprings of Linguistic Diversity</span><u></u><u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:9pt">ARC Centre of Excellence for the Dynamics of Language</span></p><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:9pt">School of Culture, History and Language<br>College of Asia and the Pacific<u></u><u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:9pt">Rm 4203, H.C. Coombs Building (#9)<br>The Australian National University<u></u><u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:9pt">Acton ACT 2601<u></u><u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:9pt">Australia<br><br>Co-chair of Public Relations</span></p><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:9pt">Board of the </span><span style="font-size:9pt">International Olympiad of Linguistics</span></p><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><a href="http://www.ioling.org" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:9pt" target="_blank">www.ioling.org</a><br><br><font face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:9pt">Blogger at Humans Who Read Grammars</span></font><br><font face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px"><a href="http://humans-who-read-grammars.blogspot." target="_blank">http://humans-who-read-grammars.blogspot.</a></span></font><br></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On 5 April 2017 at 18:55, Martin Haspelmath <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
I must say that I find the question ("what are interesting
grammatical typological features for capturing the diversity of
Oceania?") a bit odd.<br>
<br>
Reesink & Dunn were specifically concerned with inferring
prehistory, and one might ask which grammatical features are the
most conservative (or stable). But this would hardly be an
Oceania-specific question.<br>
<br>
I'm not sure what is meant by "capturing the diversity of"
something. When an area is relatively uniform in salient features
(e.g. with respect to word order, or vowel systems), then one needs
less salient features to see internal diversity. But are there
salient features with respect to which "Oceania" is relatively
uniform?<br>
<br>
In other words, which feature would NOT be "interesting"?<br>
<br>
And here's another question: What is "Oceania"? This term has so
many different meanings that I'm confused by it (see
<a class="m_1173232533744187873moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceania" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<wbr>Oceania</a>). Do at least the specialists
in Oceanic languages agree to use it in the sense of "the language
area of Oceanic languages (i.e. including New Zealand and parts of
New Guinea), i.e. in a sense that is not even mentioned by the
Wikipedia article.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="m_1173232533744187873moz-cite-prefix">On 05.04.17 10:32, Kilu von Prince
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><span style="font-size:12.8px">Hi Hedvig,</span>
<div style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px">what an intriguing proposal! I'm
working on a comparative project on Oceanic languages of
Melanesia, so there are quite a number of things that come to
my mind. For the time being, I'd suggest the following:</div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px">* Portmanteau subject-agreement
markers that simultaneously encode TMA information (y/n)</div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px">* Modes of negation: simple
marker, circumfix/ circumclitics, or portmanteau TMA markers
that simultaneously encode polarity</div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px">* Using "finish", "it is finished"
etc. frequently to structure a narrative, or more generally as
a marker of perfectifity (y/n)</div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px">* Using serial verb "go" to
indicate passage of time in a narrative (y/n)</div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px">These are not necessarily the only
or most interesting things to look at from our perspective,
I'll have to think about it some more. Feel free to contact me
directly for further exchange of ideas.</div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px">Best,</div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px">Kilu</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 10:28 AM, Kilu
von Prince <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kilu.von.prince@hu-berlin.de" target="_blank">kilu.von.prince@hu-berlin.de</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Hedvig,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>what an intriguing proposal! I'm working on a
comparative project on Oceanic languages of Melanesia,
so there are quite a number of things that come to my
mind. For the time being, I'd suggest the following:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>* Portmanteau subject-agreement markers that
simultaneously encode TMA information (y/n)</div>
<div>* Modes of negation: simple marker, circumfix/
circumclitics, or portmanteau TMA markers that
simultaneously encode polarity</div>
<div>* Using "finish", "it is finished" etc. frequently to
structure a narrative, or more generally as a marker of
perfectifity (y/n)</div>
<div>* Using serial verb "go" to indicate passage of time
in a narrative (y/n)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>These are not necessarily the only or most
interesting things to look at from our perspective, I'll
have to think about it some more. Feel free to contact
me directly for further exchange of ideas.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Kilu</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div class="m_1173232533744187873h5">On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 4:21 AM, Hedvig
Skirgård <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com" target="_blank">hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div class="m_1173232533744187873h5">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div class="m_1173232533744187873m_-4326409139743084763m_-305663611913455126gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small">Dear typologists,</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<p class="m_1173232533744187873m_-4326409139743084763m_-305663611913455126m_1554752280181880654gmail-p1">What
are interesting grammatical typological
features for capturing the diversity of
Oceania? I sent this message earlier to
the mailing list for pacific
linguistics, but I thought I'd try here
as well since I didn't get any response
there yet.</p>
<p class="m_1173232533744187873m_-4326409139743084763m_-305663611913455126m_1554752280181880654gmail-p1">I
work with a grammatical survey of the
world's languages, Grambank, and I'm
also personally interested in Oceania in
particular for my PhD project. I've been
doing some thinking as to what features
would be interesting to cover to more
accurately capture the grammatical
diversity of Oceania in particular,
besides the feature set that we already
have for the world-sample.</p>
<p class="m_1173232533744187873m_-4326409139743084763m_-305663611913455126m_1554752280181880654gmail-p1">One
guide are the features that Reesink,
Dunn et al used in their publications on
Sahul and Melanesia (see attachments and
references listed below). They've taken
in input from a lot of previous
literature and commentary, so it's a
good set.</p>
<p class="m_1173232533744187873m_-4326409139743084763m_-305663611913455126m_1554752280181880654gmail-p1">Besides
those, do you have other suggestions?</p>
<p class="m_1173232533744187873m_-4326409139743084763m_-305663611913455126m_1554752280181880654gmail-p1">From
a rather Samoan-centric perspective, I'd
be inclined to add features like these:</p>
<ul>
<li>Is there a "neutral" choice in
attributive possession, i.e. not
alienable/inalienable,
dominant/subordinate?</li>
<li>Can the agent be expressed as the
possessor of the verb instead of
encoded in the more canonical
ergative/nominative manner?</li>
<li>Can TA markers be entirely dropped
in main clauses?</li>
<li>Is number of absolute arguments
expressed by reduplication on the
verb?<br>
</li>
</ul>
<p class="m_1173232533744187873m_-4326409139743084763m_-305663611913455126m_1554752280181880654gmail-p1">Clearly
these need further refinement, I just
wanted to give some examples. Looking
forward to more suggestions!</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><font size="2" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><b>Tōfā soifua,<br>
</b></font><b><font size="2" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Hedvig
Skirgård</font></b></p>
<b><br>
References:<br>
</b>Dunn, Michael, Angela Terrill, Ger
Reesink, Robert A. Foley & Stephen C.
Levinson. 2005. Structural phylogenetics
and the reconstruction of ancient language
history. Science 309. 2072–2075. <br>
<br>
Dunn, Michael, Robert A. Foley, Stephen C.
Levinson, Ger Reesink & Angela
Terrill. 2007. Statistical reasoning in
the evaluation of typological diversity in
Island Melanesia. Oceanic Linguistics
46(2). 388-403. <br>
<br>
Dunn, Michael, Stephen C. Levinson, Eva
Lindström, Ger Reesink, & Angela
Terrill. 2008. Structural phylogeny in
historical linguistics: Methodological
explorations applied in Island Melanesia.
Language 84(4). 710-759 <br>
<br>
Reesink, G., Singer, R., & Dunn, M.
(2009). Explaining the linguistic
diversity of Sahul using population
models. PLoS Biology, 7(11), e1000241.
doi:10.1371/journal.pbio.10002<wbr>41<br>
<br>
Reesink, Ger & Michael Dunn (2012)
Systematic typological comparison as a
tool for investigating language history.
in Nicholas Evans and Marian Klamer (eds)
Language Documentation & Conservation
Special Publication No. 5 Melanesian
Languages on the Edge of Asia: Challenges
for the 21st Century. pp. 34–71</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br clear="all">
<div>
<div class="m_1173232533744187873m_-4326409139743084763m_-305663611913455126m_1554752280181880654gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:9pt"><b><br>
</b></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:9pt"><b>***</b></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><b><font size="2" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">Hedvig
Skirgård</font></b><br>
</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:9pt"><b><br>
</b>PhD Candidate<br>
<span style="color:rgb(196,89,17)">The
Wellsprings of
Linguistic Diversity</span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:9pt">ARC
Centre of Excellence for
the Dynamics of Language</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:9pt">School
of Culture, History and
Language<br>
College of Asia and the
Pacific</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:9pt">Rm
4203, H.C. Coombs
Building (#9)<br>
The Australian National
University</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:9pt">Acton
ACT 2601</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:9pt">Australia<br>
<br>
Co-chair of Public
Relations</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:9pt">Board
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Olympiad of Linguistics</span></p>
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<br>
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sans-serif"><span style="font-size:9pt">Blogger
at Humans Who Read
Grammars</span></font><br>
<font face="Calibri,
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</a></span></font><br>
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<span class="m_1173232533744187873HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div class="m_1173232533744187873m_-4326409139743084763gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Dr. Kilu von Prince</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div>Dorotheenstr. 24</div>
<div>Raum 3.311</div>
<div><a href="tel:030%2020939755" value="+493020939755" target="_blank">(030)
2093-9755</a><br>
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<div dir="ltr"><br>
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<div dir="ltr">Postanschrift:<br>
<div>Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin</div>
<div>Unter den Linden 6</div>
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<div><br>
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<div><br>
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</div>
</font></span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="m_1173232533744187873mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><pre class="m_1173232533744187873moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath (<a class="m_1173232533744187873moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
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