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This discussion exemplifies a general problem: We use many terms
that have very unclear reference, and as a result we don't
understand each other.<br>
<br>
Semantic change is of course familiar from other aspects of
language, so it's natural that it occurs with more technical
terminology as well. <br>
<br>
But it shouldn't.<br>
<br>
The whole point of technical terminology is that it has the same
meaning everywhere, and there are many standardization bodies. For
geographical regions, it seems that the most authoritative
terminology is the United Nations M.49 geoscheme (see
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_M.49">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_M.49</a>).<br>
<br>
According to the UN standard, Oceania includes not only "Trinesia"
(Melanesia, Micronesia and Polynesia), but also Australia (and New
Zealand, which is anthropologically part of Polynesia, but
politically probably best grouped with Australia as "Australasia").<br>
<br>
Thus, if we as linguists want a term that includes Melanesia,
Micronesia and Polynesia, we should NOT use "Oceania", but perhaps
come up with something new, such as "Trinesia". ("Pacific" is
definitely too vague, as it also includes Japan etc.).<br>
<br>
Of course, these geographical groupings are not necessarily
"natural", but mostly based on geographers' traditions, and they are
fairly arbitrary – this of course reminds me of the term "gender",
which is also a traditional term that seems to be definable only in
a somewhat arbitrary way (unless we want to change its meaning and
thus create even more confusion). It seems that we cannot do without
such traditional and arbitrary terms, because the world is so
complex that it does not lend itself to clear natural groupings at
this level granularity.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 06.04.17 01:23, Hedvig Skirgård
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAHHFGT06gW5ioLOPCwMOPKfqvB2veCbKSqCq1q76shth1Laguw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
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<div dir="ltr">
<div>Apologies, I should have been clearer. This idea was
conceived of within a group of colleagues and I failed to
express myself clearly outside of that group. I just wanted
some more suggestions as input for discussions later on in the
project at ANU, and I know that the LINGTYP-crowd is often
very helpful with commentary.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The sample would include languages of the entire
Oceania-region, i.e. also non-AN languages of Melanesia. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you all for your engagement and comments. I apologise
if I'm not as responsive as usual these coming days, two
colleagues and I wrote an article that is getting some media
attention and I need to see to that.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>All the best, </div>
<div>Hedvig</div>
</div>
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<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><font
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<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><b><font
size="2" face="arial, helvetica,
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<div class="gmail_quote">On 6 April 2017 at 03:49, Mary Walworth
<span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:maryewalworth@gmail.com" target="_blank">maryewalworth@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Hedvig,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Quick clarification question since "Pacific" could
also be ambiguous: do you mean to include only AN
languages? or, do you mean to include all indigenous
languages, both AN and non-AN languages, of these three
geographic areas? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Mary</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
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<div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px">Mary
Elizabeth Walworth, PhD</div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px">Postdoctoral
Researcher in Linguistics<br>
</div>
<span class="">
<div style="font-size:12.8px">Department
of Linguistic and Cultural
Evolution</div>
</span>
<div style="font-size:12.8px"><span
class="">Max Planck Institute for
the Science of Human History<br>
</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/51452/25522"
style="color:rgb(17,85,204)"
target="_blank">http://www.shh.mpg.de/<wbr>employees/51452/25522</a><br>
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</div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px">Visiting
Researcher and Instructor</div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px">Université
de la Polynésie française<br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div class="h5">On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 10:37 AM,
Hedvig Skirgård <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com"
target="_blank">hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div dir="ltr">Hello again!
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for those who have been sending
comments and suggestions, let's keep the
thread going.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Just to clarify, when I wrote "oceania"
above I did actually refer to the geographic
area, i.e. Polynesia + Micronesia +
Melanesia. Apologies for the confusion. (In
fact, when I was growing up in Sweden, I was
taught to also include Australia in this
region, but I've since learned that that's
not commonly done.) I realise that something
like "pacific region" might have been
better. Apologies.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Either way, I'm interested to include
languages of Melanesia, Polynesia and
Micronesia in this set. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'll be working together with colleagues
at ANU and in the Grambank project. I'm a
PhD student at ANU and one of the
researchers at Glottobank.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>/Hedvig</div>
</div>
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<p style="margin:0cm 0cm
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</b></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:9pt"><b>***</b></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm
0.0001pt"><font size="2"
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif"><b>Tōfā
soifua,</b></font></p>
<span>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm
0.0001pt"><b><font
size="2"
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">Hedvig
Skirgård</font></b></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:9pt"><b><br>
</b>PhD Candidate<br>
<span
style="color:rgb(196,89,17)">The
Wellsprings of
Linguistic Diversity</span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm
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style="font-size:9pt">ARC
Centre of Excellence
for the Dynamics of
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<p style="margin:0cm 0cm
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style="font-size:9pt">School
of Culture, History
and Language<br>
College of Asia and
the Pacific</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm
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style="font-size:9pt">Rm
4203, H.C. Coombs
Building (#9)<br>
The Australian
National University</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm
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style="font-size:9pt">Acton
ACT 2601</span></p>
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style="font-size:9pt">Australia<br>
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Relations</span></p>
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style="font-size:9pt">Board
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<div class="m_-7845378690394703230h5">
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 30 March 2017
at 16:34, Hedvig Skirgård <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com"
target="_blank">hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<p
class="m_-7845378690394703230m_6695572786976456464m_-6802410037675592239gmail-p1">Dear
pacific linguists,</p>
<p
class="m_-7845378690394703230m_6695572786976456464m_-6802410037675592239gmail-p1">What
are interesting grammatical
typological features for
capturing the diversity of
Oceania? (Please respond with
concrete examples, and respond
to the full list :).)</p>
<p
class="m_-7845378690394703230m_6695572786976456464m_-6802410037675592239gmail-p1">I
work with a grammatical survey
of the world's languages,
Grambank, and I'm also
personally interested in Oceania
in particular for my PhD
project. I've been doing some
thinking as to what features
would be interesting to cover to
more accurately capture the
grammatical diversity of Oceania
in particular, besides the
feature set that we already have
for the world-sample.</p>
<p
class="m_-7845378690394703230m_6695572786976456464m_-6802410037675592239gmail-p1">One
guide are the features that
Reesink, Dunn et al used in
their publications on Sahul and
Melanesia (see attachments and
references listed below).
They've taken in input from a
lot of previous literature and
commentary, so it's a good set.</p>
<p
class="m_-7845378690394703230m_6695572786976456464m_-6802410037675592239gmail-p1">Besides
those, do you have other
suggestions?</p>
<p
class="m_-7845378690394703230m_6695572786976456464m_-6802410037675592239gmail-p1">From
a rather Samoan-centric
perspective, I'd be inclined to
add features like these:</p>
<ul>
<li>Is there a "neutral" choice
in attributive possession,
i.e. not
alienable/inalienable,
dominant/subordinate?</li>
<li>Can the agent be expressed
as the possessor of the verb
instead of encoded in the more
canonical ergative/nominative
manner?</li>
<li>Can TA markers be entirely
dropped in main clauses?</li>
<li>Is number of absolute
arguments expressed by
reduplication on the verb?<br>
</li>
</ul>
<p
class="m_-7845378690394703230m_6695572786976456464m_-6802410037675592239gmail-p1">Clearly
these need further refinement, I
just wanted to give some
examples. Looking forward to
more suggestions!</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><font
size="2" face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"><b>Tōfā
soifua,<br>
</b></font><b><font size="2"
face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">Hedvig Skirgård</font></b></p>
<b><br>
References:<br>
</b>Dunn, Michael, Angela Terrill,
Ger Reesink, Robert A. Foley &
Stephen C. Levinson. 2005.
Structural phylogenetics and the
reconstruction of ancient language
history. Science 309. 2072–2075. <br>
<br>
Dunn, Michael, Robert A. Foley,
Stephen C. Levinson, Ger Reesink
& Angela Terrill. 2007.
Statistical reasoning in the
evaluation of typological
diversity in Island Melanesia.
Oceanic Linguistics 46(2).
388-403. <br>
<br>
Dunn, Michael, Stephen C.
Levinson, Eva Lindström, Ger
Reesink, & Angela Terrill.
2008. Structural phylogeny in
historical linguistics:
Methodological explorations
applied in Island Melanesia.
Language 84(4). 710-759 <br>
<br>
Reesink, G., Singer, R., &
Dunn, M. (2009). Explaining the
linguistic diversity of Sahul
using population models. PLoS
Biology, 7(11), e1000241.
doi:10.1371/journal.pbio.10002<wbr>41<br>
<br>
Reesink, Ger & Michael Dunn
(2012) Systematic typological
comparison as a tool for
investigating language history. in
Nicholas Evans and Marian Klamer
(eds) Language Documentation &
Conservation Special Publication
No. 5 Melanesian Languages on the
Edge of Asia: Challenges for the
21st Century. pp. 34–71</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br clear="all">
<div>
<div
class="m_-7845378690394703230m_6695572786976456464m_-6802410037675592239gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
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<div dir="ltr">
<p style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:9pt"><b><br>
</b></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:9pt"><b>***</b></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm
0cm 0.0001pt"><b><font
size="2"
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif">Hedvig
Skirgård</font></b><br>
</p>
<p style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:9pt"><b><br>
</b>PhD
Candidate<br>
<span
style="color:rgb(196,89,17)">The
Wellsprings of
Linguistic
Diversity</span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:9pt">ARC Centre of Excellence for the Dynamics of
Language</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:9pt">School of Culture, History and Language<br>
College of Asia
and the Pacific</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:9pt">Rm 4203, H.C. Coombs Building (#9)<br>
The Australian
National
University</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:9pt">Acton ACT 2601</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:9pt">Australia<br>
<br>
Co-chair of
Public Relations</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:9pt">Board of the </span><span style="font-size:9pt">International
Olympiad of
Linguistics</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm
0cm 0.0001pt"><a
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
IPF 141199
Nikolaistrasse 6-10
D-04109 Leipzig
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