<div dir="ltr">Based on your description, it looks like 'older.sibling male' etc. may have the status of "basic-level categories" in Papuan Malay (i.e. be the default level of specificity at which siblings are classified). If so, then this would be a strong argument in favour of treating these collocations as entries in the lexicon.<div><br></div><div>I'm not convinced, though, that "elder brother" (and its equivalents in other European languages) <i>shouldn't</i> be granted their own lexical entries. After all, "elder" is pretty much restricted to kin terms (and for an even more extreme case, French <i>aîné(e)</i> is I think restricted to sibling terms).</div><div><br></div><div>Perhaps what is at stake (when deciding what constitutes a "kinship term") is not, in fact, whether a given term is part of the lexicon, but rather whether it is a "basic-level" term.</div><div><br></div><div>Siva</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 19 July 2017 at 19:42, David Gil <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
Still on the topic of age and gender in siblings, here's a
descriptive problem that I've been puzzling over and have no
solution for; I wonder if anybody has any suggestions:<br>
<br>
Like many other varieties of Malay/Indonesian, Papuan Malay has a
simple two-way distinction based on age:<br>
<br>
kaka - 'older sibling'<br>
ade - 'younger brother'<br>
<br>
But where it differs from other similar varieties of
Malay/Indonesian is in what I guess I would call "usage": speakers
very often use collocations which serve to differentiate gender:<br>
<br>
kaka laki-laki 'older.sibling male'<br>
kaka perempuan 'older.sibling female'<br>
ade laki-laki 'younger.sibling male'<br>
ade perempuan 'younger.sibling female'<br>
<br>
Similar collocations are available in other dialects, except that
they're much less frequent, and one would not be tempted to enter
these into a lexicon of kinship terms (any more than one would think
of saying that English has a kinship term 'older brother' on the
basis of the phrasal collocation used to express the concept).<br>
<br>
But Papuan Malay feels different, in Papuan Malay people use these
collocations more frequently, and in contexts where they would not
be used in other varieties of Malay/Indonesian. So where in a
description of the language would this fact be represented? And
where would this fact be expressed in a cross-linguistic typology of
kinship terms? <br>
<br>
(At present, I am not aware of any properties other than those
pertaining to usage that would distinguish collocations such as
"kaka laki-laki" in Papuan Malay from its counterparts in other
varieties of Malay/Indonesian. In particular, I doubt that there is
any phonological evidence to the effect that such collocations are
more closely bound in Papuan Malay than in other varieties.)<div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="m_7201871712429507558moz-cite-prefix">On 19/07/2017 11:21, Kyla Quinn wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Okay, so looking through the parabank kin data we
have so far....<br>
<br>
</div>
For Alex' question....out of 300 odd languages there
are 82 that don't distinguish gender for younger
siblings. There are 52 that don't distinguish gender
for older siblings. There is a 51 language cross over
between these two sets. Most of these are
Austronesian and North American languages, with a few
Australian and others scattered through.<br>
<br>
</div>
For Siva's question...<br>
<br>
</div>
There are some languages in the data set that exhibit this
pattern but as a cross pattern, so if you are male you
distinguish for older brother and younger brother but no
age distinction for sisters and vice versa. There are
three languages that exhibit precisely what you've asked
and there are several other variations.<br>
<br>
</div>
Happy to answer any other questions based on our data!!<br>
<br>
</div>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
</div>
Kyla<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 6:57 PM, Siva
Kalyan <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sivakalyan.princeton@gmail.com" target="_blank">sivakalyan.princeton@gmail.<wbr>com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">On a slight tangent, are
there languages where male siblings are distinguished for
age but female siblings aren't (or vice versa)?<span class="m_7201871712429507558HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<div>
<br class="m_7201871712429507558m_-2139698397864532570Apple-interchange-newline">
<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;display:inline!important;float:none">Siva</span>
</div>
</font></span>
<div>
<div class="m_7201871712429507558h5">
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 19 Jul 2017, at 6:50 pm, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank"></a><a class="m_7201871712429507558moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="m_7201871712429507558m_-2139698397864532570Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Matt beat
me to it on Malay/Indonesian! I would just
like to add that while many (most?) varieties
that I am familiar with work the way Matt
describes, some exhibit an asymmetry in which
elder siblings are distinguished for gender
while younger ones are not. This pattern is
also evident in closely-related Minangkabau:<br>
<br>
adiak - 'younger sibling'<br>
uda - 'elder brother'<br>
uni - 'elder sister'<br>
<br>
And I suspect that it is common in other
languages of the region.<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="m_7201871712429507558m_-2139698397864532570moz-cite-prefix">On
19/07/2017 10:40, Matthew Carroll wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Guys
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What about Indonesian/Malay?
kakak/adik for elder/younger sibling
respectively. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Matt</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 19,
2017 at 9:31 AM, Hedvig Skirgård <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com" target="_blank"></a><a class="m_7201871712429507558moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com" target="_blank">hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Dear LINGTYP,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Does anyone know of a language
that has a distinction in the
kinship system for age of referent
(younger/older) without also
having a distinction for gender of
referent? For example, a language
that marks siblings as being
younger or older to ego without
reference to being sister or
brother.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The hypothesis is that this
doesn't happen/is very rare. We'd
like to know if you've come across
any examples of this.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'm asking for my friend Alex
(cc:ed) who is not on the list.
Please direct any responses or
comments to her.</div>
<div><br>
<div>
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<pre class="m_7201871712429507558m_-2139698397864532570moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="m_7201871712429507558m_-2139698397864532570moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): <a href="tel:+49%203641%20686834" value="+493641686834" target="_blank">+49-3641686834</a>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): <a href="tel:+62%20812-8116-2816" value="+6281281162816" target="_blank">+62-81281162816</a>
</pre>
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--
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</span></div><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
</span><div><p><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Kyla Quinn</span></p><p><span style="font-size:11.0pt">
</span></p><p><span style="font-size:11.0pt">PhD Candidate
</span></p>
<p style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">ARC <span>Centre</span> of <span>Excellence</span> for the <span>Dynamics</span> of <span>Language</span></span></p>
<p style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">College of Asia and the Pacific | The Australian National University </span></p>
<p style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
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</div>
</blockquote>
<pre class="m_7201871712429507558moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="m_7201871712429507558moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): <a href="tel:+49%203641%20686834" value="+493641686834" target="_blank">+49-3641686834</a>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): <a href="tel:+62%20812-8116-2816" value="+6281281162816" target="_blank">+62-81281162816</a>
</pre></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>