<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Just to add a word about a "non exotic language" (or very exotic, depending on the starting point of typology), Indo-European,</div><div>Siva's remark is not exact: </div><div>French "aîné(e)" is not restricted to sibling terms.</div><div>You can often be confronted to a recently met person who declares:</div><div>   "Puisque je suis l'aîné(e), je me permets de proposer qu'on se tutoie."</div><div>(Since I am the elder one, I allow myself to propose that we say 'tu' (you in singular) to each other),</div><div>which by no way reveals a kinship.</div><div><br></div><div>M.M.Jocelyne FERNANDEZ-VEST</div><div><br></div><div>CNRS & Université </div><div>Sorbonne Nouvelle,</div><div>Linguistique Générale, </div><div>Finno-Ougrienne et </div><div>Scandinave</div><div><br></div><div> </div><div>Envoyé de mon iPhone</div><div><br>Le 19 juil. 2017 à 13:06, Siva Kalyan <<a href="mailto:sivakalyan.princeton@gmail.com">sivakalyan.princeton@gmail.com</a>> a écrit :<br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>I'm not convinced, though, that "elder brother" (and its equivalents in other European languages) <i>shouldn't</i> be granted their own lexical entries. After all, "elder" is pretty much restricted to kin terms (and for an even more extreme case, French <i>aîné(e)</i> is I think restricted to sibling terms).</div><div><br></div><div>Perhaps what is at stake (when deciding what constitutes a "kinship term") is not, in fact, whether a given term is part of the lexicon, but rather whether it is a "basic-level" term.</div><div><br></div><div>Siva</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 19 July 2017 at 19:42, David Gil <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    Still on the topic of age and gender in siblings, here's a
    descriptive problem that I've been puzzling over and have no
    solution for; I wonder if anybody has any suggestions:<br>
    <br>
    Like many other varieties of Malay/Indonesian, Papuan Malay has a
    simple two-way distinction based on age:<br>
    <br>
    kaka - 'older sibling'<br>
    ade - 'younger brother'<br>
    <br>
    But where it differs from other similar varieties of
    Malay/Indonesian is in what I guess I would call "usage": speakers
    very often use collocations which serve to differentiate gender:<br>
    <br>
    kaka laki-laki 'older.sibling male'<br>
    kaka perempuan 'older.sibling female'<br>
    ade laki-laki 'younger.sibling male'<br>
    ade perempuan 'younger.sibling female'<br>
    <br>
    Similar collocations are available in other dialects, except that
    they're much less frequent, and one would not be tempted to enter
    these into a lexicon of kinship terms (any more than one would think
    of saying that English has a kinship term 'older brother' on the
    basis of the phrasal collocation used to express the concept).<br>
    <br>
    But Papuan Malay feels different, in Papuan Malay people use these
    collocations more frequently, and in contexts where they would not
    be used in other varieties of Malay/Indonesian.  So where in a
    description of the language would this fact be represented?  And
    where would this fact be expressed in a cross-linguistic typology of
    kinship terms? <br>
    <br>
    (At present, I am not aware of any properties other than those
    pertaining to usage that would distinguish collocations such as
    "kaka laki-laki" in Papuan Malay from its counterparts in other
    varieties of Malay/Indonesian.  In particular, I doubt that there is
    any phonological evidence to the effect that such collocations are
    more closely bound in Papuan Malay than in other varieties.)<div><div class="h5"><br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="m_7201871712429507558moz-cite-prefix">On 19/07/2017 11:21, Kyla Quinn wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>
          <div>
            <div>
              <div>
                <div>
                  <div>Okay, so looking through the parabank kin data we
                    have so far....<br>
                    <br>
                  </div>
                  For Alex' question....out of 300 odd languages there
                  are 82 that don't distinguish gender for younger
                  siblings. There are 52 that don't distinguish gender
                  for older siblings. There is a 51 language cross over
                  between these two sets.  Most of these are
                  Austronesian and North American languages, with a few
                  Australian and others scattered through.<br>
                  <br>
                </div>
                For Siva's question...<br>
                <br>
              </div>
              There are some languages in the data set that exhibit this
              pattern but as a cross pattern, so if you are male you
              distinguish for older brother and younger brother but no
              age distinction for sisters and vice versa. There are
              three languages that exhibit precisely what you've asked
              and there are several other variations.<br>
              <br>
            </div>
            Happy to answer any other questions based on our data!!<br>
            <br>
          </div>
          Cheers,<br>
          <br>
        </div>
        Kyla<br>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 6:57 PM, Siva
          Kalyan <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sivakalyan.princeton@gmail.com" target="_blank">sivakalyan.princeton@gmail.<wbr>com</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div style="word-wrap:break-word">On a slight tangent, are
              there languages where male siblings are distinguished for
              age but female siblings aren't (or vice versa)?<span class="m_7201871712429507558HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
                  <div>
                    <br class="m_7201871712429507558m_-2139698397864532570Apple-interchange-newline">
                    <span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;display:inline!important;float:none">Siva</span>
                  </div>
                </font></span>
              <div>
                <div class="m_7201871712429507558h5">
                  <br>
                  <div>
                    <blockquote type="cite">
                      <div>On 19 Jul 2017, at 6:50 pm, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank"></a><a class="m_7201871712429507558moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>
                        wrote:</div>
                      <br class="m_7201871712429507558m_-2139698397864532570Apple-interchange-newline">
                      <div>
                        <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Matt beat
                          me to it on Malay/Indonesian!  I would just
                          like to add that while many (most?) varieties
                          that I am familiar with work the way Matt
                          describes, some exhibit an asymmetry in which
                          elder siblings are distinguished for gender
                          while younger ones are not.  This pattern is
                          also evident in closely-related Minangkabau:<br>
                          <br>
                          adiak - 'younger sibling'<br>
                          uda - 'elder brother'<br>
                          uni - 'elder sister'<br>
                          <br>
                          And I suspect that it is common in other
                          languages of the region.<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          <div class="m_7201871712429507558m_-2139698397864532570moz-cite-prefix">On
                            19/07/2017 10:40, Matthew Carroll wrote:<br>
                          </div>
                          <blockquote type="cite">
                            <div dir="ltr">Hi Guys
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>What about Indonesian/Malay?
                                kakak/adik for elder/younger sibling
                                respectively. </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Best,</div>
                              <div>Matt</div>
                            </div>
                            <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                              <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 19,
                                2017 at 9:31 AM, Hedvig Skirgård <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com" target="_blank"></a><a class="m_7201871712429507558moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com" target="_blank">hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com</a>></span>
                                wrote:<br>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                  <div dir="ltr">Dear LINGTYP, 
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>Does anyone know of a language
                                      that has a distinction in the
                                      kinship system for age of referent
                                      (younger/older) without also
                                      having a distinction for gender of
                                      referent? For example, a language
                                      that marks siblings as being
                                      younger or older to ego without
                                      reference to being sister or
                                      brother.</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>The hypothesis is that this
                                      doesn't happen/is very rare. We'd
                                      like to know if you've come across
                                      any examples of this.</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>I'm asking for my friend Alex
                                      (cc:ed) who is not on the list.
                                      Please direct any responses or
                                      comments to her.</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                      <div>
                                        <div class="m_7201871712429507558m_-2139698397864532570m_-8627244694891210382gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
                                          <div dir="ltr">
                                            <div>
                                              <div dir="ltr">
                                                <div dir="ltr">
                                                  <div dir="ltr">
                                                    <div dir="ltr">
                                                      <div dir="ltr">
                                                        <div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:9pt"><b>***</b></span></div>
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</pre>
    </blockquote>
    

    <pre class="m_7201871712429507558m_-2139698397864532570moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
David Gil

Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany

Email: <a class="m_7201871712429507558m_-2139698397864532570moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): <a href="tel:+49%203641%20686834" value="+493641686834" target="_blank">+49-3641686834</a>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): <a href="tel:+62%20812-8116-2816" value="+6281281162816" target="_blank">+62-81281162816</a>

</pre>
  </div>

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</div></blockquote></div>
</div></div></div></blockquote></div>


-- 
<div class="m_7201871712429507558gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
</span></div><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
</span><div><p><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Kyla Quinn</span></p><p><span style="font-size:11.0pt">
</span></p><p><span style="font-size:11.0pt">PhD Candidate
</span></p>
<p style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">ARC <span>Centre</span> of <span>Excellence</span> for the <span>Dynamics</span> of <span>Language</span></span></p>
<p style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">College of Asia and the Pacific | The Australian National University </span></p>
<p style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman""><mime-attachment.jpg></span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman""> </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span></div></div></div>
</div>



</blockquote>
<pre class="m_7201871712429507558moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
David Gil

Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany

Email: <a class="m_7201871712429507558moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): <a href="tel:+49%203641%20686834" value="+493641686834" target="_blank">+49-3641686834</a>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): <a href="tel:+62%20812-8116-2816" value="+6281281162816" target="_blank">+62-81281162816</a>

</pre></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Lingtyp mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a></span><br><span><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>