<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div>Hi all,<br></div><div><br></div>While I definitely agree with Martin's point about proposed universals inciting people to look for counter-examples, it might be mentioned that it is not so easy to publish counter-examples to well-known generalizations. As Maia points out (if I understood her correctly), journal reviewers tend to ask for 'theoretical accounts' and can be defensive about typological generalizations, some of which get inflated into 'principles,' which means that counter-examples may not necessarily make it to the attention of the relevant communities.<br><br></div>In response to Nick's comment about lexical items allowing speakers to not specify the sex of small children or infants, note that English speakers often refer to infants as "it,"* which horrifies speakers of gender-crazy Hebrew.<br><br></div>*From The Guardian (2017): "<span class="gmail-st"><span class="gmail-f"></span>Later, Vernon recalled, the woman “didn't even know how to hold the baby. Its head kept falling back until I showed her how to hold it."</span><div><div><div><br></div><div>Best,<br></div><div>Eitan<br> <br></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Eitan Grossman<div>Lecturer, Department of Linguistics/School of Language Sciences<br></div><div>Hebrew University of Jerusalem</div><div>Tel: +972 2 588 3809</div><div>Fax: +972 2 588 1224</div><div><br></div><div><div>Recent: <i>Greek Influence on Egyptian-Coptic: Contact-Induced Change in an Ancient African Language </i>(Widmaier Verlag <a href="http://widmaier-verlag.de/index.php?content=issue&isbn=978-3-943955-17-0" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://widmaier-verlag.de/index.php?content=issue&isbn=978-3-943955-17-0</a>)</div></div><div><div><div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Maia Ponsonnet <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:maia.ponsonnet@sydney.edu.au" target="_blank">maia.ponsonnet@sydney.edu.au</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div style="direction:ltr;font-family:Arial;color:#333333;font-size:10pt">Hi,
<div>I certainly agree that it is good to provide clear formulations for the observations that are worth testing, such as the one below. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However, I wonder is calling such hypotheses "universals" too early can create other problems. We may then omit to disqualify the hypothesis, even after many, many counter-examples have been provided. So we may end up postulating universality based on
say, 10 cases, and 10 years later still be busy providing counter-examples for what we still call a "(potential) universal" while say, 20 counter-examples, have already been provided.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>(And of course this is partly because we need arguments and big "points" to hang on to in publications: it is convenient to have a universal to contradict when we write an article, and we are asked to write as many articles as we possibly can, etc.)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So perhaps calling it "hypothetical implication" may be safer?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Maïa</div>
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<div id="m_8228896509110830788divRpF512830" style="direction:ltr"><font size="2" color="#000000" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp [<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.<wbr>linguistlist.org</a>] on behalf of Martin Haspelmath [<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 19 July 2017 19:07<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.<wbr>org</a><span class=""><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Kinship systems that distinguish age but not gender<br>
</span></font><br>
</div><div><div class="h5">
<div></div>
<div>On the basis of Turkish (<i>kardeş</i>) and Minangkabau (<i>adiak</i>), which neutralize the sex distinction in the younger sibling term, one could propose the following universal:<br>
<br>
"If a language makes a distinction between elder and younger siblings and neutralizes sex only in one type, then it neutralizes in younger siblings."<br>
<br>
This may seem bold, but I think that such bold formulations are productive in that they are likely to elicit responses from language specialists whose language goes against the generalization. (And if the bold generalization makes it into print somewhere, then
one can even write an abstract on the basis of one's data and argue against a previous claim.)<br>
<br>
Now it so happens that a claim very similar to the one above has already been made, on p. 76-77 in Greenberg's chapter "Universals of kinship terminology", which is Chapter five of his most important work:<br>
<br>
<div class="m_8228896509110830788csl-bib-body" style="line-height:1.35;padding-left:2em">
<div class="m_8228896509110830788csl-entry">Greenberg, Joseph H. 1966. <i>Language universals, with special reference to feature hierarchies</i>. The Hague: Mouton.<br>
</div>
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<br>
Greenberg formulates the generalization in terms of one kind of kinship being "marked", the other "unmarked". "Marked" features tend to be neutralized, so saying that younger siblings are "marked" amounts to the same as the above claim. (In my view of things,
this would mean that some kinds of kinship features are more frequently used than others.)<br>
<br>
(Greenberg also says somewhere that masculine/male is unmarked, so he probably predicts that female terms ternd to be neuralized for age, thus answering Siva Kalyan's question.)<br>
<br>
So there are a lot of interesting predictions that could be tested if someone finally made a comprehensive world-wide database on kinship terms (I think some people near Hedvig are working on this).<br>
<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="m_8228896509110830788moz-cite-prefix">On 19.07.17 10:50, David Gil wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">Matt beat me to it on Malay/Indonesian! I would just like to add that while many (most?) varieties that I am familiar with work the way Matt describes, some exhibit an asymmetry in which elder siblings are distinguished for gender while
younger ones are not. This pattern is also evident in closely-related Minangkabau:<br>
<br>
adiak - 'younger sibling'<br>
uda - 'elder brother'<br>
uni - 'elder sister'<br>
<br>
And I suspect that it is common in other languages of the region.<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="m_8228896509110830788moz-cite-prefix">On 19/07/2017 10:40, Matthew Carroll wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Guys
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What about Indonesian/Malay? kakak/adik for elder/younger sibling respectively. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Matt</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 9:31 AM, Hedvig Skirgård <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com" target="_blank">hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Dear LINGTYP,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Does anyone know of a language that has a distinction in the kinship system for age of referent (younger/older) without also having a distinction for gender of referent? For example, a language that marks siblings as being younger or older to ego without
reference to being sister or brother.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The hypothesis is that this doesn't happen/is very rare. We'd like to know if you've come across any examples of this.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'm asking for my friend Alex (cc:ed) who is not on the list. Please direct any responses or comments to her.</div>
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