<html><head></head><body><div style="font-family:courier new, courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;font-size:medium;"><div><div>
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<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:21.25pt;mso-char-indent-count:1.77;line-height:16.0pt;layout-grid-mode:char"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I agree with Martin’s bold
claim. It seems to be very natural in
the following senses.</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:21.25pt;mso-char-indent-count:1.77;line-height:16.0pt;layout-grid-mode:char"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">First, from the formal perspective,
babies are very likely to be neutralized in sex. If there is a continuum of sex neutralization
from the point of being very young (babies) to the point of very old, then, the
younger section, which includes the babies, should be more likely to be
neutralized.</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:21.25pt;mso-char-indent-count:1.77;line-height:16.0pt;layout-grid-mode:char"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Second, from the perspective of linguistic iconicity,
babies tend to be sex-neutralized because their sex features are least developing.
And it is natural, the less sex-developing, the easier to be
sex-neutralized. </span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:21.25pt;mso-char-indent-count:1.77;line-height:16.0pt;layout-grid-mode:char"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">According to the degrees of
development in sex features, it might to be predicted that there may be some
languages where the very old elders are neutralized in linguistic form, since
very old elders are sex-retrodegraded. </span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:21.25pt;mso-char-indent-count:1.77;line-height:16.0pt;layout-grid-mode:char"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">In short, the sex neutralization is
more likely when the sex features are less strong and less important in age. </span></p>
<!--EndFragment--></div></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><hr><div id="ydp2f44aed4yahoo_quoted_0908802504" class="ydp2f44aed4yahoo_quoted"><div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;"><div>On Wednesday, July 19, 2017, 5:10:32 PM GMT+8, Martin Haspelmath <haspelmath@shh.mpg.de> wrote:</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div id="ydp2f44aed4yiv4734335248"><div>
On the basis of Turkish (<i>kardeş</i>) and Minangkabau (<i>adiak</i>),
which neutralize the sex distinction in the younger sibling term,
one could propose the following universal:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
"If a language makes a distinction between elder and younger
siblings and neutralizes sex only in one type, then it neutralizes
in younger siblings."<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
This may seem bold, but I think that such bold formulations are
productive in that they are likely to elicit responses from language
specialists whose language goes against the generalization. (And if
the bold generalization makes it into print somewhere, then one can
even write an abstract on the basis of one's data and argue against
a previous claim.)<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Now it so happens that a claim very similar to the one above has
already been made, on p. 76-77 in Greenberg's chapter "Universals of
kinship terminology", which is Chapter five of his most important
work:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div><div><div class="ydp2f44aed4yiv4734335248csl-bib-body" style="line-height:1.35;padding-left:2em;">
<div class="ydp2f44aed4yiv4734335248csl-entry">Greenberg, Joseph H. 1966. <i>Language
universals, with special reference to feature hierarchies</i>.
The Hague: Mouton.<br clear="none">
</div>
<span class="ydp2f44aed4yiv4734335248Z3988" title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Language%20universals%2C%20with%20special%20reference%20to%20feature%20hierarchies&rft.place=The%20Hague&rft.publisher=Mouton&rft.aufirst=Joseph%20H.&rft.aulast=Greenberg&rft.au=Joseph%20H.%20Greenberg&rft.date=1966"></span></div>
<br clear="none">
Greenberg formulates the generalization in terms of one kind of
kinship being "marked", the other "unmarked". "Marked" features tend
to be neutralized, so saying that younger siblings are "marked"
amounts to the same as the above claim. (In my view of things, this
would mean that some kinds of kinship features are more frequently
used than others.)<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
(Greenberg also says somewhere that masculine/male is unmarked, so
he probably predicts that female terms ternd to be neuralized for
age, thus answering Siva Kalyan's question.)<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
So there are a lot of interesting predictions that could be tested
if someone finally made a comprehensive world-wide database on
kinship terms (I think some people near Hedvig are working on this).<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Martin<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<div class="ydp2f44aed4yiv4734335248yqt3486392255" id="ydp2f44aed4yiv4734335248yqtfd42142"><div class="ydp2f44aed4yiv4734335248moz-cite-prefix">On 19.07.17 10:50, David Gil wrote:<br clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
</blockquote></div></div><div class="ydp2f44aed4yiv4734335248yqt3486392255" id="ydp2f44aed4yiv4734335248yqtfd24285"></div><div><div class="ydp2f44aed4yiv4734335248yqt3486392255" id="ydp2f44aed4yiv4734335248yqtfd75808">
Matt beat me to it on Malay/Indonesian! I would just like to add
that while many (most?) varieties that I am familiar with work the
way Matt describes, some exhibit an asymmetry in which elder
siblings are distinguished for gender while younger ones are not.
This pattern is also evident in closely-related Minangkabau:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
adiak - 'younger sibling'<br clear="none">
uda - 'elder brother'<br clear="none">
uni - 'elder sister'<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
And I suspect that it is common in other languages of the region.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<div class="ydp2f44aed4yiv4734335248moz-cite-prefix">On 19/07/2017 10:40, Matthew Carroll
wrote:<br clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Guys
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>What about Indonesian/Malay? kakak/adik for elder/younger
sibling respectively. </div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Matt</div>
</div>
<div class="ydp2f44aed4yiv4734335248gmail_extra"><br clear="none">
<div class="ydp2f44aed4yiv4734335248gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 9:31 AM,
Hedvig Skirgård <span dir="ltr"><<a shape="rect" href="mailto:hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br clear="none">
<blockquote class="ydp2f44aed4yiv4734335248gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div dir="ltr">Dear LINGTYP,
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>Does anyone know of a language that has a
distinction in the kinship system for age of referent
(younger/older) without also having a distinction for
gender of referent? For example, a language that marks
siblings as being younger or older to ego without
reference to being sister or brother.</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>The hypothesis is that this doesn't happen/is very
rare. We'd like to know if you've come across any
examples of this.</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>I'm asking for my friend Alex (cc:ed) who is not on
the list. Please direct any responses or comments to
her.</div>
<div><br clear="none">
<div>
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<pre class="ydp2f44aed4yiv4734335248moz-signature">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a shape="rect" class="ydp2f44aed4yiv4734335248moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): +49-3641686834
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81281162816
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<pre class="ydp2f44aed4yiv4734335248moz-signature">--
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&
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</pre><div class="ydp2f44aed4yiv4734335248yqt3486392255" id="ydp2f44aed4yiv4734335248yqtfd54446">
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