<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
Elizabeth,<br>
<br>
I believe most colloquial varieties of Malay/Indonesian have both
possibilities ... Though note that Malay/Indonesian NP-internal
order is head initial, so the orders are mirror-image to those in
English.<br>
<br>
With regard to your first question:<br>
<br>
(1) <i>kaki kucing (yang) kecil</i><br>
leg cat (REL) small<br>
<br>
can have either interpretation (small leg or small cat). <br>
<br>
With regard to your second question: There are various
constructions of different types that correspond to varying degrees
to the English determiner <i>the</i>, but yes, it is possible for
determiner-like forms to be associated with the possessor and with
the entire NP, for example:<br>
<br>
(2) <i>kaki kucing=nya (yang) itu<br>
</i>leg cat=ASSOC (REL) DEM.DIST<br>
<br>
The enclitic <i>=nya</i> is an erstwhile 3rd person possessive
marker that has become reanalyzed as something more like a
determiner. To the extent that there are criteria for "full NP's"
in Malay/Indonesian, the possessor <i>kucing=nya</i> in (2) above
would be one such NP.<br>
<br>
David <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/09/2017 23:17, Elizabeth K
Nielsen wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CALtKgiV7R+BPzxAObuQ6FnZm8Vh7ym9-B39OLoFtf_8W0TfJ3Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal"><span
style="color:black;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10.5pt">Hello,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">I'm currently working on extending
the LinGO Grammar Matrix, which is a system that allows
linguists to jumpstart the creation of an implemented HPSG
grammar through a questionnaire interface (see <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1969044"
target="_blank">Bender et al. 2010</a>). I’m working on
extending the Grammar Matrix to cover adnominal
possession. A couple of the analyses I’m working with
right now would have typological implications which I’d
appreciate input on.</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">First are cases of possession
expressed via simple juxtaposition, without any possessive
morphemes, e.g.:</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"> cat paw</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"> 'cat’s paw’</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">The analysis for this construction
that I'm currently using would preclude constructions such
as the following, where you can put a modifier on the left
edge and have it interpreted as the modifier of the
possessum:</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"> little cat paw</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"> 'cat’s little paw’ (rather than
‘the paw of the little cat”)</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">Does anyone know of a language
where these constructions do occur?</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">Second, I have developed a working
analysis for languages like Italian that have possessive
modifiers -- constructions where a possessed noun can
appear with both a possessor and a determiner:</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"> la mia casa</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"> the my house</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"> ‘my house’</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">My current analysis for possessive
modifiers would allow the possessor noun to be a full NP,
including determiners, etc. For example, using English
lexical items to demonstrate, my current analysis would
allow sentences like the following:</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"> the [the cat-GEN] paw</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"> ‘the cat’s paw’</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">Are there in fact examples of
languages with possessive modifiers that allow comparable
constructions? Or are possessive modifiers in such
languages not full NPs?</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">Many thanks,</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">Elizabeth Nielsen</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">University of Washington</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif">MS in Computational Linguistics</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12.8px;line-height:normal"><font
face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"> </font></p>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Lingtyp mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): +49-3641686834
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81281162816
</pre>
</body>
</html>