<div dir="ltr">Can someone please give me a list of all of the structural constituents we regularly rely on in linguistics which have an automatic and non-problematic ("valid") cross-linguistic application?<div>Syllable? morpheme? clitic? word? sentence? They all leak.</div><div><br></div><div>I am reminded of the time in 1973 when I submitted two draft chapters to the publisher for review of what would ultimately become my 1975 phonology</div><div>textbook. I'll never forget the opening line from one of the reviewers:</div><div><br></div><div>"In a word this book is not for you--or for anyone else for that matter, for in it the author invokes the syllable and the word, two of the slipperiest notions in all of</div><div>linguistics."</div><div><br></div><div>I remember the first two reactions I had to the review:</div><div><br></div><div>1. Although generative phonology was centered around the morpheme then (and denied the syllable, for instance), the morpheme also has its slipperiness.</div><div>2. Wow! You can add -est to "slippery"!</div><div><br></div><div>I frequently cite this anecdote when teaching the English comparative/superlative in intro classes.</div><div><br></div><div>I'm looking forward to David's paper... although I wonder if the word that might be defined for the isolating/polysynthetic contrast will work for everything else we need the word to do.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Nov 11, 2017 at 10:38 AM, David Gil <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
Contrary to Östen (below), I am not quite ready to concede to Martin
the impossibility of defining a comparative concept of "word" that
will enable typologists to distinguish between isolating and
polysynthetic languages (as well as various intermediate types). I
am currently working on a paper that will provide such a
definition. An extended abstract of the paper is attached here. <br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="m_7038422100508540281moz-cite-prefix">On 12/11/2017 02:23, Östen Dahl wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="m_7038422100508540281WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">OK,
we should forget about word boundaries in typology, but
should we also do so when writing grammars? Could you write
a grammar of a stereotypical polysynthetic grammar and make
it look like an isolating one without using procrustean
methods?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">(Didn’t
</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">Skalička
have a rather idiosyncratic definition of polysynthesis?)</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">Östen<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Från:</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> Martin
Haspelmath [<a class="m_7038422100508540281moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>]
<br>
<b>Skickat:</b> den 11 november 2017 19:01<br>
<b>Till:</b> Östen Dahl <a class="m_7038422100508540281moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:oesten@ling.su.se" target="_blank"><oesten@ling.su.se></a><br>
<b>Kopia:</b> <a class="m_7038422100508540281moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.<wbr>org</a><br>
<b>Ämne:</b> Re: SV: [Lingtyp] wordhood: responses to
Haspelmath<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">It's not
crazy at all to say that isolating languages could be
described as polysynthetic, and vice versa. (In fact,
Skalička described Modern Chinese as polysynthetic in
1946.)</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div id="m_7038422100508540281AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div id="m_7038422100508540281AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">The
problem is that archetypes like isolating and
polysynthetic are mostly stereotypes. They are not clearly
defined, at least not without reference to a "word"
concept (itself only based on intuition, i.e.
stereotypes). <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div id="m_7038422100508540281AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div id="m_7038422100508540281AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Of course,
morphosyntactic patterns are often more complex than
simple strings of morphemes. But we don't really know in
which ways these complexities cluster. Is it the case that
languages with tense-person cumulation (to give just one
example of a complexity) also tend to show case-number
cumulation? Is it the case that languages with special
bare-object constructions ("incorporation") tend to show
phonological interactions between object and verb? We
don't know yet, I think. By merely labeling languages
according to a few archetypes, we won't find out. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div id="m_7038422100508540281AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div id="m_7038422100508540281AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">So yes,
let's forget about word boundaries in typology until we
have a very good way to draw them consistently (using the
same criteria in all languages).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div id="m_7038422100508540281AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div id="m_7038422100508540281AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div id="m_7038422100508540281AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Martin<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><br>
Am 11.11.2017 um 18:40 schrieb Östen Dahl <<a href="mailto:oesten@ling.su.se" target="_blank"></a><a class="m_7038422100508540281moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:oesten@ling.su.se" target="_blank">oesten@ling.su.se</a>>:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="m_7038422100508540281MsoPlainText"><span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">Martin, I wonder if your views on these
matters imply that a polysynthetic language could
equally well be described as being an isolating one, and
vice versa. That is, one should just forget about word
boundaries and describe utterances as consisting of
strings of morphemes. If you think this is not feasible,
why?</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_7038422100508540281MsoPlainText"><span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">Best,</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_7038422100508540281MsoPlainText"><span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">Östen</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_7038422100508540281MsoPlainText"><span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="m_7038422100508540281mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
Lingtyp mailing list
<a class="m_7038422100508540281moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.<wbr>org</a>
<a class="m_7038422100508540281moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.<wbr>org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
</font></span></pre><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
</font></span></blockquote><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<br>
<pre class="m_7038422100508540281moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="m_7038422100508540281moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): <a href="tel:+49%203641%20686834" value="+493641686834" target="_blank">+49-3641686834</a>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): <a href="tel:+62%20812-8116-2816" value="+6281281162816" target="_blank">+62-81281162816</a>
</pre>
</font></span></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.<wbr>org</a><br>
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.<wbr>org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div>Larry M. Hyman, Professor of Linguistics & Executive Director, France-Berkeley Fund</div><div>Department of Linguistics, University of California, Berkeley</div><div>President, Linguistic Society of America</div><div><a href="http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/people/person_detail.php?person=19" target="_blank">http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/people/person_detail.php?person=19</a></div></div><div><br></div><div><b style="font-size:12.8px"><i>Support the LSA’s efforts to advance the scientific study of language with every <a href="http://www.linguisticsociety.org/content/lsa-amazon-smile-contribute-today" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">Amazon Smile</a> purchase you make throughout the year.</i></b><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>