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Dear all,<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 15/11/2017 17:53, Martin Haspelmath
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:5A0C0E84.3080200@shh.mpg.de" type="cite">David
wants to argue that the diverse phenomena in different languages
can be seen as reflecting some more abstract formal property. So
for example, all of (1)-(5) could be seen to reflect phonological
"bondedness" (or "same prosodic domain"):
<br>
<br>
(1) vowel harmony
<br>
(2) tone sandhi
<br>
(3) progressive ATR assimilation
<br>
(4) vowel reduction
<br>
(5) preoralization of final nasals
<br>
<br>
But my question is: Is there independent evidence for the
existence of this abstract formal property?
<br>
</blockquote>
I'm a little surprised to see Martin ask this question. My
understanding of comparative concepts (which I got from Martin's
papers, and from conversations with him) is that they don't "exist"
or "fail to exist", but rather they turn out to be "more useful" or
"less useful" to us in our endeavors to gain new typological
insights into the diversity and unity of human languages. And of
course, I think that most or all of us feel that a typology is
"useful' to the extent that it leads beyond itself into other and
perhaps unexpected phenomenological domains. (Not much point in
typologizing languages in accordance with what the initial segment
of their word for "dog" is, as that probably won't lead to anything
interesting.)<br>
<br>
So in the case at hand, the question is not whether the word as a
comparative concept exists, but rather whether a comparative concept
of word can take us beyond the features on which its definition is
based, in order to tell us new stuff. Here are three quite
different domains for which I have high hopes that a comparative
concept of word might prove to be useful.<br>
<br>
1. Making it possible to couch a diachronic generalization to the
effect that a certain kind of radical contact situation involving
massive 2nd language acquisition will lead to a reduction in the
size of words, i.e. towards an isolating typology. (Some of you
will recognize this as a topic that came up in discussion of the
recent Blasi, Michaelis and Haspelmath paper.)<br>
<br>
2. One of my personal favourites: Making it possible to couch
generalizations concerning ludlings, e.g. that the word is the
largest domain within which the rules of a ludling can apply. For
example, a ludling can reverse the order of segments in a word, but
not in a larger unit such as a phrase.<br>
<br>
3. And finally, getting back to the "scene of the crime", as it
were: it can enable us to make cross-linguistic generalizations
about orthographic systems, namely that in some, certainly not all,
systems, there is a tendency for symbols such as spaces to be
inserted at word boundaries — a tendency which can be observed on
the fly as speakers of hitherto unwritten languages adapt them to
social media.<br>
<br>
Of course I could be wrong about any or all of these, but it's still
a reasonable and coherent way to approach things. Finally, <br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 15/11/2017 17:53, Martin Haspelmath
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:5A0C0E84.3080200@shh.mpg.de" type="cite">Comparative
concepts must eventually be based on substance – phonetic
substance or semantic substance. Language-particular abstract
concepts such as domains are not good for comparison. <br>
</blockquote>
I beg to differ. Language IS abstract, highly so, and I don't see
why "abstract concepts such as domains" can't be used as a basis for
the definition of comparative concepts. The only requirement is for
the definition to be objective and applicable cross-linguistically.
An example of such a definition is my attempt, below, to develop a
universal definition of syntactic categories defined in purely
formal, distributional terms, with no reference whatsoever to
substance.<br>
<br>
<meta name="Title" content="">
<p class="ReferencesT" style="mso-pagination:widow-orphan
lines-together"><span lang="EN-US">Gil, David (2000) "Syntactic
Categories, Cross-Linguistic
Variation and Universal Grammar", in P. M. Vogel and B. Comrie
eds., <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Approaches to the
Typology of Word Classes</i>,
Empirical Approaches to Language Typology, Mouton, Berlin and
New York,
173-216.<br>
</span></p>
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I would just add that would-be substantive notions such as, say,
"sonorant consonant" or "kinship term" are themselves every bit as
abstract as purely formal notions such as domains, or syntactic
categories. (After all these years working on Indonesian, I still
can't make up my mind whether it even HAS kinship terms ...)<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): +49-3641686834
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81281162816
</pre>
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