<div dir="ltr">Dear Denys,<div>to add one more example, in Agul (Lezgic, Nakh-Daghestanian), the main speech verb 'say' in reported speech constructions sometimes introduces thoughts, not speech (see ex. 20 here: <a href="https://www.academia.edu/3007166/">https://www.academia.edu/3007166/</a>). </div><div>This is not found frequently, and there are dedicated verbs of thinking (complex verbs "thought + do"). These verbs of thinking do not introduce speech, as far as I know.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Timur</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2018-01-06 22:23 GMT+03:00 JOO Ian <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:il.y.en.a@outlook.com" target="_blank">il.y.en.a@outlook.com</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
Dear Stef,<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
Your thought that "explicitly marked reported thought (e.g. with a matrix verb commonly meaning 'think') is not interpreted as reported speech" is interesting, but wouldn't it be possible, on pragmatic grounds, for a verb meaning 'to think' to refer to an actual
utterance? For example:<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
"Donald Trump thinks that he should be elected again."<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
could refer to Trump's actual utterance "I should be elected again".<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
But I'm not sure if this is a valid counterexample, I would like to know what others think.<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
</font></span></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
Ian Joo<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
<a href="http://ianjoo.academia.edu" target="_blank">http://ianjoo.academia.edu</a></div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
</font></span><div id="m_-8951123884979018207divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.<wbr>linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Spronck, Stef <<a href="mailto:stef.spronck@helsinki.fi" target="_blank">stef.spronck@helsinki.fi</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, January 7, 2018 2:49:16 AM</font></span><div><div class="h5"><br>
<b>To:</b> Denys T.<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.<wbr>org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Quotations of speech vs. quotations of thoughts</div></div></font>
<div> </div>
</div><div><div class="h5">
<div>
<div id="m_-8951123884979018207divtagdefaultwrapper" dir="ltr" style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif,"EmojiFont","Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji",NotoColorEmoji,"Segoe UI Symbol","Android Emoji",EmojiSymbols">
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<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Hi Denys,</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">At the risk of simply restating the two previous responses: I think that given the polyfunctionality and high frequency of quotative indexes not derived from verbs of speech crosslinguistically (as Ekkehard points out),
we should be careful to gloss a quotative index as 'say', rather than give it a more generic gloss, unless there is construction-independent evidence for a 'say' meaning of the lexeme (a point Bill McGregor also makes in a recent book chapter about quotative
indexes in several Australian Aboriginal languages: <span>McGregor, W. B. In: Robering, K. (Ed.) The 'say, do' verb in Nyulnyul, Warrwa, and other Nyulnylan languages is monosemic Events, Arguments and Aspects: Topics in the Semantics of Verbs, Amsterdam/Philadelphia:
John Benjamins, 2014, 301-327 (would be happy to send you a scanned copy off-list)</span>).<br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">That said (!), all descriptions about the polyfunctionality of reported speech constructions/quotative indexes I have seen replicate David's observation about colloquial Indonesian: reported speech constructions may
also be interpreted as reported thought, but explicitly marked reported thought (e.g. with a matrix verb commonly meaning 'think') is not interpreted as reported speech. If anyone has a counterexample to this observation I would be very interested!
<br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Best,</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Stef<br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
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<p></p>
<div>Stef Spronck<br>
<p><font size="1"><span style="font-size:8pt"></span></font><span style="font-size:8pt">Postdoctoral researcher at the
</span><span style="font-size:8pt">University of Helsinki (HU Humanities Programme)</span></p>
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<div id="m_-8951123884979018207divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.<wbr>linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of "Ekkehard König" <<a href="mailto:koenig@zedat.fu-berlin.de" target="_blank">koenig@zedat.fu-berlin.de</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, 6 January 2018 7:27:11 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Denys T.<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.<wbr>org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Quotations of speech vs. quotations of thoughts</font>
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<div class="m_-8951123884979018207BodyFragment"><font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt">
<div class="m_-8951123884979018207PlainText">Dear Denys,<br>
<br>
even if this is not exactly the information you were hoping to get, it may<br>
still be of interest to you:<br>
<br>
- in a wide variety of Indo-European languages quotative markers derive<br>
from deomonstratives of manner, typically from the exophoric use (German<br>
so; French ainsi, etc.) in combination with verbs of saying or without.<br>
(cf. pp. 159 of the article attached)<br>
<br>
(i)"Bla, bla bla", so die Kanzlerin,...<br>
<br>
- as is shown in Güldemann (2008) - also quoted in my article - in many<br>
African languages manner demonstratives and non-deictic expressions of<br>
manner provide the main source of quotative markers and in many cases such<br>
expressions of manner have been reanalysed as verbs of saying [rather than<br>
the other way round].<br>
<br>
- similar sources of quotative markers can be observed in languages from<br>
other areas, e.g. in Japanese.<br>
<br>
Another example from my own language comes to mind: like Dutch (betekenis<br>
- bedoeling), but in contrast to English, German draws a distinction<br>
between sentence/word meaning (bedeuten) and speaker/utterance meaning<br>
(meinen). The latter verb can be used for both saying and thinking, at<br>
least in certain contexts (Karl meinte....'Karl thought/said').<br>
<br>
Best wishes,<br>
<br>
Ekkehard<br>
<br>
-<br>
<br>
> Dear colleagues (especially those working with quotative markers and<br>
> reported speech),<br>
><br>
> in Erzya (Mordvinic, Uralic), the verb merģems with the primary meaning<br>
> ‘say’ is also used to quote thoughts:<br>
><br>
> (1) Mon merģinģ, ton Saransat.<br>
> 1sg say.pst.1sg 2sg Saransk.ine.prs.2sg<br>
> ‘I thought (lit. I said), you are in Saransk’ (Aasmäe 2012: 66).<br>
><br>
> However, out of context, the QI-clause Mon merģinģ would likely be<br>
> interpreted as ‘I said’ and instead of quotation of thoughts one will get<br>
> the quotation of speech. It is, of course, not a unique thing that one<br>
> quotative index (clause) can be used to mark different types of reported<br>
> discourse. I am wondering whether there is cross-linguistic evidence,<br>
> pointing that the reading ‘I/you/X said’ is prior to the reading ‘I/you/X<br>
> thought’ in such cases? For instance, notorious I was like to be<br>
> interpreted out of context as 'I said' rather than 'I thought'? Or that<br>
> speech verbs are frequently used to mark mental processes, but not vice<br>
> versa? Is there any hierarchy in the reading of quotations? Are there any<br>
> studies that would show that one would be prior to another? Is it even<br>
> reasonable to expect to find something like this? Any suggestions, hints,<br>
> (language-specific) examples are more than welcome!<br>
><br>
> Cheers!<br>
><br>
> Have a nice evening!<br>
><br>
> Best wishes from Tartu,<br>
> Denys Teptiuk_______________________<wbr>________________________<br>
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