<div dir="ltr">Jeff, some good points, but oh! are you writing off all of phonological typology? I can see how morphosyntacticians might not be interested in who has what phoneme or what is the distribution of certain phonetic rarities, but there is more to the full range of phonological phenomena than inventories—word-prosody typology, for instance? (I am incompetent to say how other aspects of language might (not) fit into "comparative linguistics", e.g. semantics? pragmatics?). If you really want to have a field that consists solely of comparative morphosyntax, then I guess that's a good name for it. On the other hand, as a grammatically oriented phonologist, I have been hoping that phonology would be part of the enterprise. For discussion of same, the following is about to appear in print (we're hoping in April):<div><br></div><div>Hyman, Larry M. & Frans Plank (eds). <i>Phonological typology</i>. Berlin/Boston: de Gruyter Mouton.</div><div><br></div><div>These are papers that we proposed for a recent ALT meeting, but our proposal for a workshop was turned down. Rightly so :-)!?</div><div><br></div><div>Be on the lookout!</div><div><br></div><div>Best, Larry</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 6:16 PM, Heath Jeffrey <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:schweinehaxen@hotmail.com" target="_blank">schweinehaxen@hotmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal">“Typology” is a bad name since it is associated with a transitory early stage in empirical disciplines where people head out into the wild and bring back novel material to sort into drawers in museums before serious theorizing begins. It
is particularly problematic in our case since most post-Greenbergian “typologists” have given up on broad morphosyntactic types in favor of mapping distributions of isolated features or probing for statistical correlations among elements in low-level domains
(‘and’ and ‘with’, etc.). <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">There is a place for those endeavors but “comparative morphosyntax” is a more challenging and important field that is more likely to be taken seriously by general linguists interested in how languages work. It points to big-picture comparisons
of entire systems, functional or structural interpretations thereof, and studies of how such systems evolve. The best work in this area is comparison of a few highly diverse languages on the one hand, and of multiple closely related languages on the other.
Of course it excludes some "typological" topics such as phoneme inventories, but who cares?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I agree that “comparative linguistics” evokes historical linguistics based on sound correspondences of stems and grammatical morphemes, and is to be avoided. I don't think that "comparative morphosyntax" would be interpreted in this way. <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Incidentally, did y’all notice the recent news about the Neandert(h)al symbolic cave paintings in Spain? Collateral damage: the minimalist program.
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<div id="m_-2539664399436404108divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.<wbr>linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Hedvig Skirgård <<a href="mailto:hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com" target="_blank">hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 27, 2018 7:49:59 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Siva Kalyan<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.<wbr>LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] language typology, linguistic typology, comparative linguistics</font>
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<div dir="ltr">Just as an illustration of non-linguists (or even non-typologists) not understanding the short term "typology". Recently at an event for our research centre I did a short presentation of the field and there were non-linguists in the audience
who found it very enlightening, because they had thought that "typology" was the study of how people type language.
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<div>/Hedvig</div>
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<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><b><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Hedvig Skirgård</font></b></p>
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<div class="m_-2539664399436404108x_gmail_quote">2018-02-28 9:18 GMT+11:00 Siva Kalyan <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:sivakalyan.princeton@gmail.com" target="_blank">sivakalyan.princeton@gmail.<wbr>com</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="m_-2539664399436404108x_gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">I would point out that in English, the term “comparative linguistics” is typically used as a shorthand for “historical-comparative linguistics”, i.e. that part of historical linguistics that concerns itself with genealogical
relatedness between languages, reconstruction etc., as opposed to diachronic change within a single language. (See e.g.
<a href="https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FComparative_linguistics&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8ee5d5af19584eaf452b08d57e4607d5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636553761601146286&sdata=7n0STkMDkMGVe2%2FaqV%2BKRmF1cXWGOu97d6qU3oVl4p0%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<wbr>Comparative_linguistics</a>.)
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<div>I see that in German (according to the corresponding Wikipedia entry), the term
<i>vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft</i> has a broader meaning which encompasses both historical linguistics (<i>historisch-vergleichende S—</i>) and typology (<i>allgemein-vergleichende S—</i>); this makes sense of the name of the department in Zurich (otherwise
a bit puzzling for an English-speaker).</div>
<div><br>
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<div>Thus the use of “comparative linguistics” to refer to (only) linguistic typology would seem to be in competition with existing usage in both English and German. That said, I can see the utility of having a cover term that encompasses both historical linguistics
and typology, and would support using “comparative linguistics” in the German sense. I’m not sure if this is within the scope of the current discussion, though.</div>
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<div>Siva</div>
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<blockquote type="cite"><span>
<div>On 28 Feb 2018, at 8:10 am, Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793Apple-interchange-newline">
</span>
<div><span><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">Dear
all,</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">What
is the name of our subfield (or subcommunity):<span class="m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important"></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
<br>
“language typology”?<u></u><u></u></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span class="m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
“linguistic typology”?<u></u><u></u></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span class="m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
or maybe simply “comparative linguistics”?<br>
<br>
Linguists know that there is no difference between the first two, and they also understand the shorter "typology", but this term is opaque for nonlinguists, and the duality of<span class="m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">“language
typology”</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
and “linguistic typology” is inconvenient, because there is incomplete aggregation on sites like Google Scholar and<span class="m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Facademia.edu%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8ee5d5af19584eaf452b08d57e4607d5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636553761601146286&sdata=dctRLNTelcmPljj3%2FNB9IDnZVufjSHFmj9t0bMrgCXY%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">Academia.edu</a>.<span class="m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
(It seems that on<span class="m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Facademia.edu%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8ee5d5af19584eaf452b08d57e4607d5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636553761601146286&sdata=dctRLNTelcmPljj3%2FNB9IDnZVufjSHFmj9t0bMrgCXY%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">Academia.edu</a>,
6354 people are followers of “language typology”, 8732 follow “linguistic typology”, and 7090 follow “typology”, though perhaps not all of the latter mean typology in the linguistics sense.)<span class="m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</span></span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span>Historically,
it seems clear that “language typology” is the older term, and has become current in the 1970s.<span class="m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-size:12pt;font-family:Cambria"></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Since
the 1990s, it got a competitor ("linguistic typology"), for unclear reasons.<br>
<br>
(More on the history of these two terms can be found in the following blogpost:<span class="m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdlc.hypotheses.org%2F1022&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8ee5d5af19584eaf452b08d57e4607d5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636553761601146286&sdata=45fV5Txh6OySB%2BC81fWjCu5NrXZo%2BVVmMihuS9WaKbM%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://dlc.hypothes<wbr>es.org/1022</a>)<br>
<br>
So I'm wondering: Maybe we should consider switching to an entirely different, fully transparent term, namely "comparative linguistics"?<br>
</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">It
seems that there are quite a few well-established fields with “comparative” in their names: comparative economics, comparative education, comparative law, comparative literature, comparative mythology, comparative psychology, and “comparative zoology” even
has a famous museum on the Harvard campus.<u></u><u></u></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><u></u><span class="m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<br>
<u></u></span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">(So
far, at least one department of comparative linguistics in the relevant sense exists: at the University of Zurich,<a class="m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.comparativelinguistics.uzh.ch%2Fen.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8ee5d5af19584eaf452b08d57e4607d5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636553761601146286&sdata=RpRW%2B1qlDM4p3NaFdjufz1oIgF99hHXB96IdddE6x%2Bw%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">http://www.comparativel<wbr>inguistics.uzh.ch/en.html</a>).</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span class="m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
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<div class="m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793_1mj m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793_1mf"><span><span><br>
I feel that the term “comparative linguistics” for what used to be called “language/linguistic typology” has another big advantage: The term fails to signal association with a particular subcommunity – and this is good. After all, many comparative linguists
work in a generative framework, and these do not usually associate with the term “typology”. However, much of what they do is clearly “typological” in the usually understood sense, so it is really odd to exclude this community terminologically.</span></span></div>
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<div class="m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793_1mj m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793_1mf"><span><br>
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<div class="m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793_1mj m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793_1mf"><span><span>In any event, the question of the name of our subfield of linguistics seems not gto have been discussed explicitly. Maybe it would not be a complete waste of time to engage in
some discussion.</span></span></div>
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<div class="m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793_1mj m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793_1mf"><span><span>Martin</span></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><u></u><u></u></span><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important"></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-size:12pt;font-family:Cambria"></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
<u></u><u></u></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important"></span>
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<div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Cambria;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<pre class="m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793moz-signature" cols="72" style="font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">--
Martin Haspelmath (<a class="m_-2539664399436404108x_m_-6679970945402115793moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
IPF 141199
Nikolaistrasse 6-10
D-04109 Leipzig
</pre>
<span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">______________________________<wbr>_________________</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">Lingtyp
mailing list</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
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</blockquote>
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Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.<wbr>org</a><br>
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.<wbr>org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>Larry M. Hyman, Professor of Linguistics & Executive Director, France-Berkeley Fund</div><div>Department of Linguistics, University of California, Berkeley</div><div><a href="http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/people/person_detail.php?person=19" target="_blank">http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/people/person_detail.php?person=19</a></div></div><div><br></div><div><b><i>Support the LSA’s efforts to advance the scientific study of language with every <a href="http://www.linguisticsociety.org/content/lsa-amazon-smile-contribute-today" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">Amazon Smile</a> purchase you make throughout the year.</i></b><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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