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Dear Dorothee,<br>
thanks for the pointers. I tried to validate the Akan corpus against
the schema, but only succeeded after tweaking the PhraseType
specification in the schema a bit (basically making "globaltags" and
"word" elements optional).<br>
<br>
Then I took a stab at converting it to CLDF, which was fairly easy
(using your typecraft_python package). The details of this
conversion are here:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/cldf/cookbook/tree/master/recipes/igt">https://github.com/cldf/cookbook/tree/master/recipes/igt</a><br>
I think different formats for rather loosely defined things like IGT
make sense. The idea of CLDF in this respect is to specify only the
better understood aspects of such datatypes (basically anything that
can be used automatically) - whereas projects like TypeCraft (or
XIGT) presumably aim at being able to model and store as much of IGT
(whatever that means) as possible.<br>
<br>
I should note that CLDF also makes it easier to encode metadata in a
machine-readable way, by piggy-backing on Linked Data: E.g. the
license information you give for the Akan corpus could be specified
via<br>
"dc:license": <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">"https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/"</a><br>
<br>
Btw.: The DOI (10.13140/RG.2.2.14614.86088) you give for the Akan
corpus doesn't resolve anymore, but leads here<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.researchgate.net/doi/removed">https://www.researchgate.net/doi/removed</a><br>
<br>
best,<br>
robert<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 04.04.2018 20:36, Dorothee Beermann
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:76b213f6-854b-ebce-1e9f-f2c3dee0858c@ntnu.no">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<p>Dear Robert,</p>
<p>Thanks for the feedback. Our <span class="Y0NH2b CLPzrc">XML
schema definition you find here<b>:</b></span> <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://typecraft.org/typecraft.xsd"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://typecraft.org/typecraft.xsd <span
class="Y0NH2b CLPzrc"><br>
</span></a></p>
<p><span class="Y0NH2b CLPzrc">We started the development of our
IGT-XML (TC-XML) in 2006/7, at that time XIGT was not around
yet. It was first presented in 2014, as far as I recall. <br>
</span></p>
<p>The most common IGT type is the basic three-line interlinear
format, a format that can also be exported from TypeCraft. Our
Akan data is part of speech tagged in addition. The TypeCraft
editor allows for annotations on several tiers which is also
reflected in our XML. <br>
</p>
<p>I agree with you; its is a good idea to also offer a CSV
format. We do not do that at the moment, although it is an
option, since we work with a PostgreSQL database.</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Dorothee<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 04. april 2018 11:19, Robert
Forkel wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:1afc924d-5b7f-2bef-ccf1-4dc917b349a1@shh.mpg.de"> Dear
Dorothee,<br>
I just had a brief look at the Akan corpus. I'd be curious what
guided your decision to come up with a custom XML based export
format. The namespace URL <br>
<pre id="line1"><span><a class="attribute-value" moz-do-not-send="true">http://typecraft.org/typecraft</a></span></pre>
doesn't seem to resolve, so I guess there is no schema defining
the XML, right? We included (very basic) support for IGT in CLDF
(see <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://github.com/cldf/cldf/tree/master/components/examples"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/cldf/cldf/tree/master/components/examples</a>),
because<br>
- the examples we found in databases like WALS could be modeled
in this simplistic form and<br>
- CSV is better suited for tools like version control than XML<br>
- we wanted to have IGT data available in the same format
framework as other linguistic data to make links between data
homogenous.<br>
<br>
We also discussed other IGT formats (see <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://github.com/cldf/cldf/issues/10"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/cldf/cldf/issues/10</a>),
among them XIGT (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://github.com/xigt/xigt" moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/xigt/xigt</a>),
which is also an XML format. Did you look at XIGT, and if so,
why was it not suitable as export format for TypeCraft?<br>
<br>
best<br>
robert<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 25.03.2018 16:51, Dorothee
Beermann wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:e92280a6-770e-0bb6-c4cd-000f8a36cb7e@ntnu.no">
<p>Dear all,</p>
<p>I have followed the discussion on this thread with
interest. Let me ask you, would any of what you discuss and
suggest here also apply to Interlinear Glossed Data?<br>
</p>
<p>Sebastian talked about making "typological research more
replicable". A related issue is reproducible research in
linguists. I guess a good starting point for whatever we do
as linguists is to keep things<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-forward-container">
<p>transparent, and to give public access to data
collections. Especially for languages with little to no
public resources (except for what one finds in articles),
this seems essential.<br>
</p>
<p>Here is an example of what I have in mind: We just
released 41 Interlinear Glossed Texts in Akan. The data
can be downloaded as XML from:</p>
<p><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://typecraft.org/tc2wiki/The_TypeCraft_Akan_Corpus"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://typecraft.org/tc2wiki/The_TypeCraft_Akan_Corpus</a><br>
</p>
The corpus is described on the download page, and also in
the notes contained in the download. (Note that we can offer
the material in several other formats.) <br>
<br>
<br>
Dorothee <br>
<br>
<font color="#999999" size="-1">Professor Dorothee Beermann,
PhD<br>
Norwegian University of Science and Technology (NTNU)<br>
Dept. of Language and Literature<br>
Surface mail to: NO-7491 Trondheim, Norway/Norge<br>
<br>
Visit: Building 4, level 5, room 4512, Dragvoll,<br>
E-mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:dorothee.beermann@ntnu.no"
moz-do-not-send="true">dorothee.beermann@ntnu.no</a><br>
<br>
Homepage:<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.ntnu.no/ansatte/dorothee.beermann"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.ntnu.no/ansatte/dorothee.beermann</a><br>
TypeCraft:<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://typecraft.org/tc2wiki/User:Dorothee_Beermann"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://typecraft.org/tc2wiki/User:Dorothee_Beermann</a><br>
</font><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-------- Forwarded Message --------
<table class="moz-email-headers-table" border="0"
cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">Subject:
</th>
<td>Re: [Lingtyp] Empirical standards in typology:
incentives</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">Date:
</th>
<td>Fri, 23 Mar 2018 11:59:18 +1100</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">From:
</th>
<td>Hedvig Skirgård <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">To:
</th>
<td>Johanna NICHOLS <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:johanna@berkeley.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true"><johanna@berkeley.edu></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">CC:
</th>
<td>Linguistic Typology <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
<div dir="ltr">Dear all,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think Sebastian's suggestion is very good. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Is this something LT would consider, Masja?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Johanna's point is good as well, but it shouldn't
matter for Sebastian's suggestion as I understand it.
We're not being asked to submit the coding criteria
prior to the survey being completed, but only at the
time of publication. There are initiatives in STEM that
encourages research teams to submit what they're
planning to do prior to doing if (to avoid biases), but
that's not baked into what Sebastian is suggestion, from
what I can tell.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would also add a 4 star category which includes
inter-coderreliabiity tests, i.e. the original author(s)
have given different people the same instructions and
tested how often they do the same thing with the same
grammar.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>/Hedvig</div>
</div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">2018-03-23 0:49 GMT+11:00 Johanna
NICHOLS <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:johanna@berkeley.edu" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">johanna@berkeley.edu</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>What's in the codebook -- the coding categories
and the criteria? That much is usually in the
body of the paper.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Also, a minor but I think important point:
Ordinarily the codebook doesn't in fact
chronologically precede the spreadsheet. A draft
or early version of it does, and that gets revised
many times as you run into new and unexpected
things. (And every previous entry in the
spreadsheet gets checked and edited too.) By the
time you've finished your survey the categories
and typology can look different from what you
started with. You publish when you're comfortably
past the point of diminishing returns. In most
sciences this is bad method, but in linguistics
it's common and I'd say normal. The capacity to
handle it needs to be built into the method in
advance. <br>
</div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<div><br>
</div>
Johanna<br>
</font></span></div>
<div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5">
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at
2:10 PM, Sebastian Nordhoff <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">sebastian.nordhoff@<wbr>glottotopia.de</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Dear all,<br>
taking up a thread from last November, I
would like to start a<br>
discussion about how to make typological
research more replicable, where<br>
replicable means "less dependent on the
original researcher". This<br>
includes coding decisions, tabular data,
quantitative analyses etc.<br>
<br>
Volker Gast wrote (full quote at bottom of
mail):<br>
> Let's assume that self-annotation
cannot be avoided for financial<br>
> reasons. What about establishing a
standard saying that, for instance,<br>
> when you submit a
quantitative-typological paper to LT you
have to<br>
> provide the data in such a way that the
coding decisions are made<br>
> sufficiently transparent for readers to
see if they can go along with<br>
> the argument?<br>
<br>
I see two possibilities for that: Option 1:
editors will refuse papers<br>
which do not adhere to this standard. That
will not work in my view.<br>
What might work (Option 2) is a star/badge
system. I could imagine the<br>
following:<br>
<br>
- no stars: only standard bibliographical
references<br>
- * raw tabular data (spreadsheet)
available as a supplement<br>
- ** as above, + code book available
as a supplement<br>
- *** as above, + computer code in R
or similar available<br>
<br>
For a three-star article, an unrelated
researcher could then take the<br>
original grammars and the code book and
replicate the spreadsheet to see<br>
if it matches. They could then run the
computer code to see if they<br>
arrive at the same results.<br>
<br>
This will not be practical for every
research project, but some might<br>
find it easier than others, and, in the long
run, it will require good<br>
arguments to submit a 0-star (i.e.
non-replicable) quantitative article.<br>
<br>
Any thoughts?<br>
Sebastian<br>
<br>
PS: Note that the codebook would actually
chronologically precede the<br>
spreadsheet, but I fill that spreadsheets
are more easily available than<br>
codebooks, so in order to keep the entry
barrier low, this order is<br>
reversed for the stars.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
<br>
</blockquote>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Professor Dorothee Beermann, PhD
Norwegian University of Science and Technology (NTNU)
Dept. of Language and Literature
Surface mail to: NO-7491 Trondheim, Norway/Norge
Visit: Building 4, level 5, room 4512, Dragvoll,
Tel.: +47 73 596525
E-mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dorothee.beermann@ntnu.no" moz-do-not-send="true">dorothee.beermann@ntnu.no</a>
Homepage:<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ntnu.no/ansatte/dorothee.beermann" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.ntnu.no/ansatte/dorothee.beermann</a>
TypeCraft:<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://typecraft.org/tc2wiki/User:Dorothee_Beermann" moz-do-not-send="true">http://typecraft.org/tc2wiki/User:Dorothee_Beermann</a>
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