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<!--StartFragment--><p class="MsoNormal">Dear Randy, <span style="mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Times" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal">What I wrote does not have anything to do with structuralism but
is based on recent research in language understanding on which we rely every
day. I mean research carried out by Google. Intriguingly, people who do NLP and
LU at Google are not linguists but computer scientists and the senior fellow of
the Google Brain Team, Jeff Dean, claims that language understanding does not
need grammar, see his slides on <span style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">Scaling
language understanding models at </span><a href="https://blog.ycombinator.com/jeff-deans-lecture-for-yc-ai/" class=""><span style="mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;color:blue" class="">https://blog.ycombinator.com/jeff-deans-lecture-for-yc-ai/</span></a><span style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">,</span> starts at 24:54 in the video, as well as the slides on
Google Translate - 27:52 in the video (the slides are below the video), but
please watch the whole video if you have time. This is one of Jeff Dean’s many
talks on Deep Learning, I give this link because I have it in my computer but
you can google the topic and the speaker. So, Google’s LU does not use grammar
but is based on combinations / sequences of elements and statistics; and
ironically, linguists who believe in grammar and irony (based on your message
below) use Google products every day. The wisdom from the Google
sequence-to-sequence model is that single examples do not count as evidence for
the organization of a system. Reread now our discussion on what is bipolar
polysemy and you will understand, why so many linguistics professors from so many different
countries cannot agree on a definition. </p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">It is not about bipolar polysemy, it is about the future
of the field. Google guys claim and prove that the same learning logic applies to all areas of life; roughly, the same rules operate in visual
perception, chemistry, language, etc. Linguists believe that linguistics is a
module of its own in the brain and love re-defining things as something
specific for the field - there is even statistics for linguists which
unfortunately differs from Google statistics because people who do statistics
in Google are mathematicians while (most of the) linguistic statisticians were
bad at math at school and therefore studied languages at the university, etc.</p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">I have a PhD in general linguistics from the University of Vienna (and
my both PhD supervisors were very bad at math) but I cannot agree that this is
sufficient evidence that the tip of my nose is the end of the horizon. OK, I
was also educated in math nine years - intensively.</p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">Best, </p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">Stela<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><br class=""></p></div><div class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 01.06.2018, at 06:06, Randy J. LaPolla <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com" class="">randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hi All,<div class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">This whole
discussion shows how problematic some of the a priori, non-empirical
assumptions of the Structuralist approach are. The assumption that there is a
fixed association of sign and signifier, and so words have meaning in some
abstract universe divorced from context, and the assumption that language can
be dealt with mathematically, and the assumption that communication happens
through coding and decoding (on the computational model), and that the “real”
word is the written, abstract, out-of-phonetic-context form, and so phonology in
context can be ignored, and as there is only one “real” meaning to a word, the
different uses in context , such as irony, can be simply ignored or treated as
deviant. The assumption that there is a fixed system that has iron-clad rules,
and that there are aspects of the system that are necessary for communication
to occur.</span> <div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" class="">There is
much literature showing how problematic these assumptions are, but somehow they
are still in force in much of linguistics, as reflected in some of this discussion.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal">My own view
is that communication involves one person performing a communicative act in a
particular place and time and to a particular addressee, and the addressee abductively
inferring that person’s reason for performing that act in that particular context
to that particular person at that particular time. So it is completely context
dependent, as Nick shows, and there is no minimum morphosyntactic structure required, as David Gil has shown. No part of the communicative situation or act can be
left out in terms of understanding the meaning that the addressee creates in
inferring the communicator’s intention (as Mark shows in including gesture in
his discussion, though it also includes non-conventionalised behaviour, e.g. gaze and body movements; and it is creation of meaning, not transfer of meaning, and so
subjective and non-determinative). Language and other conventionalised
communicative behaviour (language is behaviour, not a thing, and does not
differ in nature from other conventionalised behaviour) emerges out of the
interaction of the people involved.</p><p class="MsoNormal">So the
question asked is like a Zen koan: you can’t answer it yes or no, as it is
based on problematic assumptions.</p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" class="">Randy<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
<!--EndFragment--><div class="">
<div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: white;" class="">-----</span></span><div style="orphans: 2; widows: 2; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; text-align: -webkit-auto; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; text-align: -webkit-auto; border-spacing: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; text-align: -webkit-auto; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: white;" class=""><b class="">Randy J. LaPolla, PhD FAHA</b> （羅</span><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: white; font-size: 13px;" class=""><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Song">仁地</font></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: white;" class="">）</span></div><div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: white;" class="">Professor of Linguistics and Chinese, School of Humanities </span></div><div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.333333015441895px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">Nanyang Technological University</span></div><div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);" class=""><span style="background-color: white;" class="">HSS-03-45, 14 Nanyang Drive </span></span></span><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.333333015441895px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-align: -webkit-auto;" class="">| </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);" class=""><span style="background-color: white;" class="">Singapore 637332</span></span></span></div><div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span style="text-align: -webkit-auto; background-color: white; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;" class=""><a href="http://randylapolla.net/" class="">http://randylapolla.net/</a></span></div><div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);" class=""><span style="background-color: white;" class="">Most recent book:</span></span></span></div><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span style="background-color: white;" class=""><font color="#222222" face="Arial, sans-serif" size="2" class=""><a href="https://www.routledge.com/The-Sino-Tibetan-Languages-2nd-Edition/LaPolla-Thurgood/p/book/9781138783324" class="">https://www.routledge.com/The-Sino-Tibetan-Languages-2nd-Edition/LaPolla-Thurgood/p/book/9781138783324</a></font></span></div></span></span></div></span></div></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div></div></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 1 Jun 2018, at 7:42 AM, Nick Enfield <<a href="mailto:nick.enfield@sydney.edu.au" class="">nick.enfield@sydney.edu.au</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">In Lao:<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><ol start="1" type="1" style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;" class=""><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">The verb cak2 means ‘know’, and can be negated as in man2 bòò1 cak2 [3sg neg know] ‘S/he doesn’t know.’ But when used alone, with no subject expressed, often with the perfect marker (as in cak2 or cak2 lèèw4) it means “I don’t know.”<o:p class=""></o:p></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">The verb faaw4 means ‘to hurry, rush’, and can be negated as in man2 bòò1 faaw4 [3sg neg rush] ‘S/he doesn’t hurry/isn’t hurrying.’ But when used alone as an imperative, with no subject expressed, often repeated, or with an appropriate sentence-final particle (as in faaw4 faaw4 or faaw4 dee4) it means “Don’t hurry, Stop hurrying, Slow down”.<o:p class=""></o:p></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Often, both positive and negative readings of verbs are available when the irrealis prefix si is used (with context or perhaps intonation doing the work); eg khaw3 si kin3 [3pl irr eat] could mean ‘They will eat it’ or ‘They will definitely not eat it’ with a meaning similar to the colloquial English expression “As if they would eat it.” The second meaning is made more likely by insertion of the directional paj3 ‘go’ before the verb (khaw3 si paj3 kin3 [3pl irr go eat] ‘As if they would eat it.’).<o:p class=""></o:p></li></ol><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Nick<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9pt;" class="">N. J. ENFIELD </span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9pt;" class="">| FAHA FRSN | Professor of Linguistics<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9pt;" class="">Head, Post Truth Initiative<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://posttruthinitiative.org/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class="">https://posttruthinitiative.org/</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9pt;" class="">Director, SSSHARC (Sydney Social Sciences and Humanities Advanced Research Centre)<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9pt;" class="">Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9pt;" class="">THE UNIVERSITY OF SYDNEY</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9pt;" class=""><br class="">Rm N364, John Woolley Building A20 | NSW | 2006 | AUSTRALIA<br class="">T +61 2 9351 2391 | M +61 476 239 669<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9pt;" class=""><a class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class=""></span></a><a href="http://orcid.org/0000-0003-3891-6973" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">orcid.org/0000-0003-3891-6973</a></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> <br class="">E <a href="mailto:nick.enfield@sydney.edu.au" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class="">nick.enfield@sydney.edu.au</span></a> | W<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://sydney.edu.au/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class="">sydney.edu.au</span></a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.nickenfield.org/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class="">nickenfield.org</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></b></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Mark Donohue <<a href="mailto:mark@donohue.cc" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mark@donohue.cc</a>><br class=""><b class="">Date:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Friday, 1 June 2018 at 7:13 AM<br class=""><b class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>" <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: [Lingtyp] Does bipolar polysemy exist?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">In Tukang Besi, an Austronesian language of Indonesia, the verb 'know' is dahani; verbs are generally prefixed to agree with the S,A argument, thus<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">ku-dahani 'I know'<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">'u-dahani 'you know'<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">etc.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">In some contexts (imperatives, emphatic generic (TAME-less) assertion), the prefix can be omitted.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">dahani 'I/you certainly know'<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Now, I've heard this (and only this) verb used, in the absence of any inflection, with exactly its opposite meaning<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Dahani 'I don't know'<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">in what might be a sarcastic sense. Unlike the antonymic uses of many adjectives in many languages, including English, this use of dahani is actually a simple (though emphatic) negation of the verb's 'normal' meaning.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">-Mark<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On 1 June 2018 at 04:43, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm;" class="" type="cite"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Yes, as Matti points out, negative lexicalization is not quite as rare as I was implying. Yet at the same time, I suspect that it might not be as common as Matti is suggesting. Looking at the examples that he cites in his Handbook chapter, I suspect that in some cases, the negative counterpart isn't "just" negative, but is also associated with some additional meaning components.<br class=""><br class="">Matti doesn't list "good"/"bad" as being such a pair, though, citing work by Ulrike Zeshan on sign languages, he does mention other evaluative concepts such as "not right", "not possible", "not enough". in English, at least, "bad" is not the negation of "good", it is the antonym of "good"; there's all kind of stuff in the world which we attach no evaluative content to, and which hence is neither good nor bad. (It's true that in English, in many contexts, the expression "not good" is understood as meaning "bad", which is interesting in and of itself, but still, it is not necessarily understood in this way.) While I have no direct evidence, I would strongly suspect that in languages that have lexicalized expressions for "not right", "not possible", and "not enough", the meanings of these expressions will be the antonyms of "right", "possible" and "enough", and not their negations.<br class=""><br class="">Under lexicalized negatives in the domain of tense/aspect, Matti lists "will not", "did not", "not finished". Well the one case that I am familiar with that falls into this category is that of the Malay/Indonesian iamative/perfect marker "sudah", which has a lexicalized negative counterpart "belum". However, "belum" isn't just "not sudah"; it also bears a strong (if not invariant) implicature that at some point in the future, the state or activity that is not complete will be completed — in fact, just like the English expression "not yet". (When people in Indonesia ask you if you're married, it's considered impolite to answer with a simple negation "tidak"; you're supposed to say "belum" precisely because of its implicature that you will, in the future, get married. By avoiding this implicature, the simple negation "tidak" is viewed as a threat to the natural order of things, in which everybody should get married.)<br class=""><br class="">I suspect that many if not all of the cases characterized by Matti as "lexicalized negatives" will turn out to be associated with some additional meaning component beyond that of "mere" negation.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">On 31/05/2018 20:06, Miestamo, Matti M P wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm;" class="" type="cite"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Dear David, Zygmunt and others,<br class=""><br class="">negative lexicalization is not quite as rare as David seems to imply. There is a cross-linguistic survey of this phenomenon by Ljuba Veselinova (ongoing work, detailed and informative presentation slides available through her website), and Zeshan (2013) has written on this phenomenon in sign languages. There's also a short summary in my recent Cambridge Handbook of Linguistic Typology chapter on negation (preprint available via the link in the signature below).<br class=""><br class="">Best,<br class="">Matti<br class=""><br class="">--<br class="">Matti Miestamo<br class=""><a href="https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/O7N4CL7rK8t5zx0kUBCq-Q?domain=ling.helsinki.fi" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/~matmies/</a><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></p><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm;" class="" type="cite"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Zygmunt Frajzyngier <<a href="mailto:Zygmunt.Frajzyngier@COLORADO.EDU" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Zygmunt.Frajzyngier@COLORADO.EDU</a>> kirjoitti 31.5.2018 kello 17.23:<br class=""><br class="">David, Friends<br class="">Related to David’s post, not to the original query.<br class="">In any individual language, there may exist a few of ‘Not-X’ items.<br class="">In Mina (Central Chadic) there is a noun which designates ‘non-blacksmith’.<br class="">In several Chadic languages there exist negative existential verb unrelated to the affirmative existential verb.<br class="">Zygmunt<br class=""><br class="">On 5/31/18, 5:52 AM, "Lingtyp on behalf of David Gil" <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>on behalf of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""> On 31/05/2018 13:37, Sebastian Nordhoff wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm;" class="" type="cite"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On 05/31/2018 01:18 PM, David Gil wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm;" class="" type="cite"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">A point of logic. "Not X" and "Antonym (X)" are distinct notions, and<br class="">the original query by Ian Joo pertains to the former, not the latter.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></blockquote><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">but is there any (monomorphemic) lexeme which expresses not-X which is<br class="">not the antonym of X?<o:p class=""></o:p></div></blockquote><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> But how many (monomorphemic) lexemes expressing not-X are there at all?<br class=""> The only ones I can think of are suppletive negative existentials, e.g.<br class=""> Tagalog "may" (exist) > "wala" (not exist). Even suppletive negative<br class=""> desideratives don't quite fit the bill, e.g. Tagalog "nais"/"gusto"<br class=""> (want) > "ayaw", which is commonly glossed as "not want", but actually<br class=""> means "want not-X", rather than "not want-X" — "ayaw" is thus an antonym<br class=""> but not a strict negation of "nais"/"gusto".<br class=""><br class=""> What is not clear to me about the original query is whether it is asking<br class=""> for negations or for antonyms.<br class=""><br class=""> --<br class=""> David Gil<br class=""><br class=""> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br class=""> Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History<br class=""> Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany<br class=""><br class=""> Email:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><br class=""> Office Phone (Germany): +49-3641686834<br class=""> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81281162816<br class=""><br class=""> _______________________________________________<br class=""> Lingtyp mailing list<br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/VBmHCMwvLQTGnKp2ikHGCw?domain=listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Lingtyp mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br class=""><a href="https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/VBmHCMwvLQTGnKp2ikHGCw?domain=listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div></blockquote><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Lingtyp mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br class=""><a href="https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/VBmHCMwvLQTGnKp2ikHGCw?domain=listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div></blockquote><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class="">--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">David Gil<br class=""><br class="">Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br class="">Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History<br class="">Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany<br class=""><br class="">Email:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><br class="">Office Phone (Germany): +49-3641686834<br class="">Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81281162816<br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Lingtyp mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br class=""><a href="https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/VBmHCMwvLQTGnKp2ikHGCw?domain=listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div></div><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; 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