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<pre wrap="">Thanks, Grev, for joining the discussion, which is actually more properly typological than the issue of reconstructed person indexes.
Despite Barlow (1992), "agreement" remains insufficiently understood in typology, and it's interesting that in generative typology, a new notion of "concord" has become more prominent recently in generative typology (e.g. Bayırlı 2017, Norris 2017). It's actually not easy to see how concord and person indexing can be subsumed under the same more abstract notion.
Let me ask: Would we be happy to say that English has agreement in definiteness? E.g. "[the big] [DEF house]", where "the" copies or cumulates the DEF feature. Of course, the DEF element preceding "house" is not overt, but from the perspective of an Arab or Hebrew grammarian, it‘s perfectly natural to assume that it‘s there, abstractly ("DEF-dropped", cf. Arabic al-baytu (a)l-kabiiru, Hebrew ha-bayit ha-gadol, where we see the DEF expressed both on the noun and on the adjective).
Likewise, from the perspective of German, it‘s natural to say that in Spanish [ICH quier-o] 'I want', the element -o copies or cumulates information from the abstract element ICH (1SG), which is not normally pronounced ("pro-dropped").
But somehow both of these views seem strange – certainly not impossible, but for a typologist who is aware of the rarity of the Arabic/Hebrew and German/English patterns, other ways of approaching these situations would seem much more natural. (For non-free-standing person forms, i.e. person indexes, I discussed in this in my <a href="https://zenodo.org/record/1294059">2013 paper</a> in the Siewierska memorial volume.)
Best,
Martin
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<div class="csl-entry">Bayırlı, İsa Kerem. 2017. The
universality of concord. Cambridge MA: Massachusetts
Institute of Technology PhD dissertation. <a
href="http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/113785">http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/113785</a>
(20 June, 2018).</div>
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<br>
Norris, Mark. 2017. Description and analyses of nominal concord
(Pt I). <i>Language and Linguistics Compass</i> 11(11). e12266.
doi:<a href="https://doi.org/10.1111/lnc3.12266">10.1111/lnc3.12266</a>.</div>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 20.06.18 18:51,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:g.corbett@surrey.ac.uk">g.corbett@surrey.ac.uk</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:2E5DBCF5-08DB-49BD-AEE7-0D1B20B6AF5C@surrey.ac.uk"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
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Your usage was fine. There’s no need to turn the clock back and
talk about agreement as “copying”. We’ve seen since at least Mike
Barlow’s thesis (1988) that it makes sense to think of agreement
as the cumulation of (partial) information. Then the presence of
nominal elements is a separate issue. We know that there are
plenty of situations between obligatory presence and obligatory
absence of such elements, so we shouldn’t tangle up the two
things. So your term was fine (and it’s certainly not the case
that the terminology depends on English or German). But this is a
change of topic, and it would be good to leave it and to get back
to the interesting one.
<div class="">Very best, Grev<br class="">
<div class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 20 Jun 2018, at 17:18, David Gil <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de"
class="">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<p class="">In my previous posting, my use of the term
"person agreement" was imprecise, as I think Martin
is implying: in the Austronesian cases that I am
familiar with, the "conominal" (to use Martin's term
from his "Argument Indexing" paper) is indeed
optional, not obligatory as in German and English.<br
class="">
</p>
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 20/06/2018 13:38,
Martin Haspelmath wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:5B2A3CB2.8000702@shh.mpg.de" class="">Changing
the topic a bit: I'm glad that the term
"person(-number) indexing" is being used in this
discussion, because "agreement in person" seems to
be extremely rare in the world's languages (found
only in Germanic, Romance, and Anejom, according to
Siewierska 1999: 239).<br class="">
<br class="">
Many linguists use the term "agreement" in
situations like Spanish "yo quier-o“, even though in
almost all languages with person indexes the
independent personal pronoun is only used to
emphasize the referent. This seems to be motivated
primarily by the situation in German and English,
where the pronoun is indeed obligtory and the verb
can be said to copy its person-number features from
the pronoun.<br class="">
<br class="">
Or am I missing something? Are there other reasons
to use the term "person agreement", e.g. in the
Austronesian languages of eastern Indonesia that
David mentions?<br class="">
<br class="">
Best,<br class="">
Martin<br class="">
<br class="">
*********<br class="">
<br class="">
Reference<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="csl-bib-body" style="line-height: 1.35;
margin-left: 2em; text-indent:-2em;">
<div class="csl-entry">Siewierska, Anna. 1999.
From anaphoric pronoun to grammatical agreement
marker: Why objects don’t make it.
<i class="">Folia Linguistica</i> 33(1–2).
225–252.</div>
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<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 20.06.18 09:36,
David Gil wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:e4bec593-89e8-4020-a310-31a32aecd3fd@shh.mpg.de"
type="cite" class="">
Ilja, <br class="">
<br class="">
This is not exactly what you're asking for, but
perhaps close enough to be of interest.
Austronesian languages typically do not have
verbal person-number subject indexes; however, in
many Austronesian languages of eastern Indonesia,
verbal agreement has arisen, and, for the most
part, the markers in question are clearly
reconstructable to the earlier Austronesian
independent pronouns.
<br class="">
<br class="">
Best, <br class="">
<br class="">
David <br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
On 19/06/2018 21:52, Ilja Seržant wrote: <br
class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Dear all, <br
class="">
<br class="">
I am looking for families (or subfamilies with a
larger time depth) for which verbal
person-number subject indexes / "agreement"
affixes (featuring the intransitive subject for
ergative lgs.) are reconstructed. (I already
have data on Dravidian, Semitic, Indo-European,
Maya, Finno-Ugric and Turkic but I need more for
my study on the dynamics of these).
<br class="">
<br class="">
I would be very grateful for any reference. <br
class="">
<br class="">
Best, <br class="">
<br class="">
Ilja <br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" moz-do-not-send="true">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
IPF 141199
Nikolaistrasse 6-10
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
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Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81281162816
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Martin Haspelmath (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
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