<P><IMG SRC=http://webmail.hufs.ac.kr:80/mail/webmailreconf.public.do?12192141></P>
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<P class=0 style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-pagination: none; mso-padding-alt: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="LETTER-SPACING: 0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 함초롬바탕; mso-font-width: 100%; mso-text-raise: 0pt">Dear Ponrawee Prasertsom, and dear all,</SPAN></P>
<P class=0 style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-pagination: none; mso-padding-alt: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0pt"> <?xml:namespace prefix = "o" ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=0 style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-pagination: none; mso-padding-alt: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="LETTER-SPACING: 0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 함초롬바탕; mso-font-width: 100%; mso-text-raise: 0pt">Korean has the ablative postposition -(ey)se typically marking source, location, etc. This marker can be used to mark agents in certain circumstances. If the NP marked with -(ey)se denotes an institution of authorities, e.g., kyengchal 'police', cengpwu 'government', etc., it can be interpreted as an agent, as in:</SPAN></P>
<P class=0 style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-pagination: none; mso-padding-alt: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0pt"> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=0 style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-pagination: none; mso-padding-alt: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="LETTER-SPACING: 0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 함초롬바탕; mso-font-width: 100%; mso-text-raise: 0pt">kyengchal-eyse capaka-ss-ta </SPAN></P>
<P class=0 style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-pagination: none; mso-padding-alt: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="LETTER-SPACING: 0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 함초롬바탕; mso-font-width: 100%; mso-text-raise: 0pt">[police-ABL arrest.take-PST-DECL] </SPAN></P>
<P class=0 style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-pagination: none; mso-padding-alt: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="LETTER-SPACING: 0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 함초롬바탕; mso-font-width: 100%; mso-text-raise: 0pt">'The police arrested and took (him).'</SPAN></P>
<P class=0 style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-pagination: none; mso-padding-alt: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0pt"> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=0 style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-pagination: none; mso-padding-alt: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="LETTER-SPACING: 0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 함초롬바탕; mso-font-width: 100%; mso-text-raise: 0pt">Likewise, if the NP marked with its variant -ise is a numeral, that NP is interpreted as the agent performing a joint action, as in:</SPAN></P>
<P class=0 style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-pagination: none; mso-padding-alt: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0pt"> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=0 style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-pagination: none; mso-padding-alt: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="LETTER-SPACING: 0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 함초롬바탕; mso-font-width: 100%; mso-text-raise: 0pt">twul-ise hakkyo-ey ka-ss-ta </SPAN></P>
<P class=0 style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-pagination: none; mso-padding-alt: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="LETTER-SPACING: 0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 함초롬바탕; mso-font-width: 100%; mso-text-raise: 0pt">[two-ABL school-to go-PST-DECL] </SPAN></P>
<P class=0 style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-pagination: none; mso-padding-alt: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="LETTER-SPACING: 0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 함초롬바탕; mso-font-width: 100%; mso-text-raise: 0pt">'The two (people) went to school together.'</SPAN></P>
<P class=0 style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-pagination: none; mso-padding-alt: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0pt"> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=0 style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-pagination: none; mso-padding-alt: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="LETTER-SPACING: 0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 함초롬바탕; mso-font-width: 100%; mso-text-raise: 0pt">This bare numeral subject marked with -ise is natural with a smaller number but as the number becomes greater (e.g. higher than 10 or so) the naturalness decreases rapidly and an addition of a person classifier -myeng will help regain naturalness. Number one (hana) is an exception to this pattern, thus in order to say 'one person alone (does sth)' we need to use honca 'one person; alone', i.e., honca-se (in this case it is not honca-ise, and not with respect to a joint-action, thus multiply exceptional). </SPAN></P>
<P class=0 style="TEXT-AUTOSPACE: ; mso-pagination: none; mso-padding-alt: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0pt"> <o:p></o:p></P>
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<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" TYPE="CITE"><BR>-----------<B>Original Message</B>-----------<BR><B>Sender :</B> David Gil < gil@shh.mpg.de ><BR><B>To :</B> lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org<BR><B>Date :</B> 2018-09-25 20:15:05<BR><B>Subject :</B> Re: [Lingtyp] Syncretism between forms encoding source and agent<BR><BR>
<P>Dear all,<BR><BR>I am rather puzzled by Claude's factual claims about Indonesian.</P>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>On 25/09/2018 19:31, Claude Hagège wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:000501d454ba$e288bf90$a79a3eb0$@fr type="cite">
<META name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered
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<DIV class=WordSection1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt" Arial?,?sans-serif??>According to David, « the use of <I>dari</I> to mark agents is characteristic of Eastern contact varieties of Malay. [He has] heard it in, among other places, Papua, Halmahera, Ambon, Maluku Tenggara and Timor. And it is also attested in the Kirinda subdialect of Sri Lankan Malay ». This use, though not quite widespread, is not unknown in Jakarta, in Bandung and in North-West Sumateran varieties of Indonesian. In these varieties, the most frequent mark of agents is <I>oleh</I>, especially, but not only, after a passive verb, marked as such by the prefix <I>di</I>-. </SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>I am always reluctant to say something doesn't occur in Malay/Indonesian, there are so many geographically-, ethnically-, and socially-based dialects that differ from each other in myriad ways. Having said that, I have never heard <I>dari </I>marking agents (at least prototypical ones) in Jakarta or other western Indonesian varieties, so if it does exist, it is uncommon and of limited distribution.<BR><BR>As for <I>oleh</I>, it occurs "everywhere" if you're talking about the standard languages, but almost nowhere if you're concerned with colloquial varieties, the only exception being in Sabah, where, rather surprisingly, it is used colloquially to mark agents and also instruments. In Jakarta and many other places in western Indonesia, the usual marking of agents is with <I>sama</I> or a reduced form thereof. If you have data in which the form <I>oleh</I> occurs, then, other than for Sabah, it is most likely in a less colloquial register with at least some influence from the standard language. A case in point is ...<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:000501d454ba$e288bf90$a79a3eb0$@fr type="cite">
<DIV class=WordSection1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt" Arial?,?sans-serif??>Interestingly, however, <I>oleh</I> and <I>dari</I> can both be used in certain constructions. For example, in Bandung, I have heard both <o:p></o:p></SPAN>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-INDENT: 35.4pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt" Arial?,?sans-serif??><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-INDENT: 35.4pt"><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt" Arial?,?sans-serif??>dia tidak mati <B>dari</B> penyakit<o:p></o:p></SPAN></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-INDENT: 35.4pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt" Arial?,?sans-serif??><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-INDENT: 35.4pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt" Arial?,?sans-serif??>and<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-INDENT: 35.4pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt" Arial?,?sans-serif??><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-INDENT: 35.4pt"><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt" Arial?,?sans-serif??>dia tidak mati <B>oleh</B> penyakit</SPAN></I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt" Arial?,?sans-serif??>, <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-INDENT: 35.4pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt" Arial?,?sans-serif??><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-INDENT: 35.4pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt" Arial?,?sans-serif??>both meaning, literally, « he is not dead because of illness ».</SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>The presence of the negator <I>tidak</I> in the above constructions is a tip-off that we're dealing here with something closer to the standard language: in the colloquial Bandung variety of Indonesian, the most common negators are <I>nggak</I> and <I>ndak</I>. <BR><BR>The take home message from this rather detailed discussion is that it's really important, when working on Malay/Indonesian and other such languages, to be very clear about which variety one is describing.<BR><BR>A separate issue here is whether "illness" is really an agent; it certainly isn't a prototypical one. And in fact, I'm not sure what marker, if any, would be used to flag the word <I>penyakit</I> 'illness' in the above sentence in Bandung. A quick check of our MPI Jakarta Field Station corpus suggests that the most common strategy for expressing 'die from X' is the zero-marked "mati X".<BR><BR>I attach herewith an (in progress) map from AMILS (Atlas of Malay/Indonesian Language Structures) showing the forms of the agent markers across colloquial Malay/Indonesian dialects. (In the map, Bandung is indicated as having the agent marker <I>sama.</I>)<BR><BR>Best wishes,<BR><BR>David<BR><BR><BR><PRE class=moz-signature cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</A>
Office Phone (Germany): +49-3641686834
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81281162816
</PRE><BR>
<HR>
<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Lingtyp mailing list<BR>Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org<BR>http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR><p>=================================== <br>Seongha Rhee, Ph.D. </p><p>Professor, Department of English Linguistics</p><p>Hankuk University of Foreign Studies </p><p>107 Imunro, Dongdaemun, Seoul </p><p>02450 Republic of Korea </p><p> </p><p>W: +82-2-2173-3171 </p><p>F: +82-2-959-4581</p><p>M: +82-10-9001-0042 </p><p><a href="http://srhee.net">http://srhee.net</a> <br><a href="mailto:srhee@hufs.ac.kr">srhee@hufs.ac.kr</a> </p><BR><BR><CENTER><A href="http://www.hufs.ac.kr/" target=_blank><IMG style="FLOAT: none; CLEAR: none" src="http://webmail.hufs.ac.kr/images/webmail_auth.gif" border=0></A></CENTER>