<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">dear colleagues,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">For those interested in the discussion of absolute space systems:</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Françoise Ozanne-Rivierre wrote a nice comparison of spatial orientation in Bali with a number of Oceanic languages, especially from New Caledonia:</div><div class="gmail_default"><div class="gmail_default"><ul><li><font face="georgia, serif">Ozanne-Rivierre, Françoise. 1997. Spatial references in New Caledonian languages. In Gunter Senft (ed.), <i>Referring to space. Studies in Austronesian and Papuan languages </i>84-100. Oxford: Oxford University Press.</font></li><li><font face="georgia, serif">—— 1999. Spatial Orientation in some Austronesian Languages. In Catherine Fuchs & Stéphane Robert (eds.), <i>Language Diversity and Cognitive Representations</i>, 73-84. Amsterdam/Philadephia: John Benjamins.<br></font></li></ul><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">Her publications inspired me in my own research on geocentric directionals in Oceanic languages:<br></font></div><div><div><ul><li><font face="georgia, serif">François, Alexandre. 2003. <a href="https://www.academia.edu/1330234/Of_men_hills_and_winds_Space_directionals_in_Mwotlap">Of men, hills and winds: Space directionals in Mwotlap</a>. <br><i>Oceanic Linguistics</i> 42 (2): 407-437. Dec 2003.<br></font></li><li><font face="georgia, serif">—— 2004. <a href="http://alex.francois.online.fr/data/AlexFrancois_GeocentricPOC_OL2004.pdf">Reconstructing the geocentric system of Proto Oceanic</a>. <br><i>Oceanic Linguistics</i> 43 (1), 1-32. June 2004.<br></font></li><li><font face="georgia, serif">—— 2015. <a href="http://alex.francois.online.fr/data/AlexFrancois_2015_North-Vanuatu-space-directionals.pdf">The ins and outs of <i>up</i> and <i>down</i>: Disentangling the nine geocentric space systems of Torres and Banks languages</a>. <br>In <i>The Languages of Vanuatu: Unity and Diversity</i>, ed. by A. François, S. Lacrampe, M. Franjieh & S. Schnell. <br>Studies in the Languages of Island Melanesia, 5. Canberra: Asia Pacific Linguistics Open Access. 137–195.<br></font></li></ul></div><div>As already mentioned in this thread, Oceanic languages mostly resort to absolute space reference for all scales, including for locating objects on a table. I've hardly ever heard egocentric strategies ('left'/'right', 'in front'/'behind') used in Vanuatu, at least in the islands where I did fieldwork. Even Port-Vila, a medium-sized city, was a place where speakers from rural areas are able to adapt their own geocentric system and map it into the city landscape.</div></div><div><br></div><div>Oceanic space systems are generally based on two axes: </div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div class="gmail_default"><div>(1) one cardinal axis used on the horizontal plane, yet lexified 'up'–'down'; <br> 'up' points southeast and 'down' northwest — originally, from 'up[wind]' vs. 'down[wind]'; </div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div class="gmail_default"><div>(2) one topographic axis contrasting inland vs. seawards. The topographic axis is sometimes lexified 'up'–'down' (as noted by Mike), but in quite a few languages those 2 terms are already preempted by the cardinal axis on the horizontal plane, so other lexical strategies are used instead (e.g. 'in'–'out', 'bush'–'ocean'…). </div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default"><div><br></div><div>Even though all Oceanic languages work essentially along the same lines, there is quite a lot of variation when it comes to detail — variation at the scale of the whole Oceanic family (Senft ed. 1997, Palmer 2002, François 2004) or even at the scale of the small group of islands in northern Vanuatu, with as many as nine different systems for 17 languages (François 2015: 151). The situation is even more complex on atolls — as has been shown by Bill and his colleagues. (refs below)</div><div><br class="gmail-Apple-interchange-newline">It is common to encounter the sort of axis rotation mentioned by Peter for Sasak: the cardinal axis is routinely twisted up to 90° so as to remain parallel to the shoreline – i.e. orthogonal to the land–sea axis. This can make the systems confusing in some locations, for the linguist but sometimes even for the speakers themselves: I've often heard speakers hesitate, or negociate with each other, how to name a particular direction (up? down? in?), either because the setting was unfamiliar, or because one of the participants was still learning the intricacies of the system. The potential complexity probably explains the variability of these systems over time, and also their fragility when confronted with totally unfamiliar places such as modern cities. It does make sense — as proposed by Jürgen — to imagine that the prevalence of geocentric vs. egocentric spatial strategies may have evolved along human history.</div><div> <br></div><div>Some further references:<br></div><div><ul><li><font face="georgia, serif">Hyslop, Catriona. 2002. Hiding behind trees on Ambae: Spatial reference in an Oceanic language of Vanuatu. <i style=""><span style="font-style:normal">In G. Bennardo (ed.),</span> Representing space in Oceania: Culture in language and mind</i>, 47-76.</font></li><li><font face="georgia, serif">Palmer, Bill. 2002. Absolute spatial reference and the grammaticalisation of perceptually salient phenomena. In G. Bennardo (ed.), <i>Representing space in Oceania: culture in language and mind</i>. Canberra: Pacific Linguistics.<br></font></li><li><font face="georgia, serif">Palmer, Bill. 2007. Pointing at the lagoon: directional terms in Oceanic atoll-based languages. In J. Siegel, J. Lynch, & D. Eades (eds.), <i>Language description, history and development</i>. London: Benjamins.<br></font></li><li><font face="georgia, serif">Palmer, B., Lum, J., Schlossberg, J., & Gaby, A. 2017. How does the environment shape spatial language? Evidence for sociotopography.<i style=""> Linguistic Typology</i>, 21(3), 457-491.</font><br></li></ul></div><div>best,</div></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Alex</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"></span></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><hr width="70" size="1" noshade align="left" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><div style="font-family:"Segoe UI",Verdana,"Trebuchet MS",Tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,102,102);font-size:11px;line-height:16.5px"><p style="font-family:verdana,geneva,sans-serif">Alex François</p><p><span style="font-family:verdana,geneva,sans-serif"><a href="http://lattice.cnrs.fr/Francois-Alexandre?lang=en" rel="noopener" target="_blank" style="text-decoration-line:none">LaTTiCe</a> — <a title="ENS" href="http://www.cnrs.fr/index.html" rel="noopener" target="_blank" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration-line:none">CNRS–</a><a title="ENS" href="https://www.ens.fr/laboratoire/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-et-cognition-umr-8094" rel="noopener" target="_blank" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration-line:none">ENS</a>–<a title="ENS" href="http://www.univ-paris3.fr/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-cognition-umr-8094-3458.kjsp" rel="noopener" target="_blank" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration-line:none">Sorbonne nouvelle</a><br><a href="https://researchers.anu.edu.au/researchers/francois-a" rel="noopener" target="_blank" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration-line:none">Australian National University</a><br><a href="https://cnrs.academia.edu/AlexFran%C3%A7ois" rel="noopener" target="_blank" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration-line:none">Academia page</a> – <a href="http://alex.francois.online.fr/" rel="noopener" target="_blank" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration-line:none">Personal homepage</a></span></p><hr size="1" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"> </div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 15:42, Peter Austin <<a href="mailto:pa2@soas.ac.uk">pa2@soas.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Dear colleagues<div><br></div><div>I have worked on the deictic system of Sasak, spoken on Lombok island, east of Bali, which also has a prominent volcano like Bali island.</div><div><br></div><div>Sasak has 4 systems for cardinal directional terms, involving 180 degree flip of 'towards the mountains' and 'towards the sea' like in Balinese, but also rotation of timuq 'east' and baret 'west' through 90 degrees in two of the systems. Therefore, geographic north can be any of lauq, daye, baret or timuq depending on where on Lombok one is located.</div><div><br></div><div>If you are interested I can share a draft discussion paper with you. Best wishes,</div><div><br></div><div>Peter</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 03:50, Bill Palmer <<a href="mailto:bill.palmer@newcastle.edu.au" target="_blank">bill.palmer@newcastle.edu.au</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Hi Mike<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Alice beat me to it with those refs. The 1998 Wassmann & Dasen paper contains a detailed account including mapping of directional axes
at the eastern tip of Bali, which does cause various reocnfigurations of the system you described.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Best<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Bill<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Alice Vittrant- Villejuif<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 3 October 2018 10:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Morgan <<a href="mailto:mwmbombay@gmail.com" target="_blank">mwmbombay@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Temporal features?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dear all, <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">About Balinese orientation device, you may read Wassermann & Dasen papers.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">- <span style="font-size:8.5pt">Balinese Spatial Orientation: Some Empirical Evidence of Moderate Linguistic Relativity </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt">Author(s): Jurg Wassmann and Pierre R. Dasen <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt">Source: The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute, Vol. 4, No. 4 (Dec., 1998), pp. 689- 711 <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt">Published by: Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland (accessible on JSTOR)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt">- Dasen, P. R., & Wassmann, J., 2008, «
<b>A cross-cultural comparison of spatial language and encoding in Bali and Geneva ».</b> In N. Srinivasan, A. K. Gupta & J. Pandey (Eds.),
<i>Advances in cognitive science</i> (pp. 264-276). New Delhi: Sage.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt">Best, <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt">Alice <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Le 3 oct. 2018 à 09:31, Mike Morgan <<a href="mailto:mwmbombay@gmail.com" target="_blank">mwmbombay@gmail.com</a>> a écrit :<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In South Bali, north and south are kaja and kelod respectively; on the north (Denpasar for example) of the island (Singaraja for example) it is the opposite; east and west
however are the same (sunrise and sunset don't change directions based on whether one is on the north or south of the central peak(s).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I have never spent enough time in the eats or west ends of the island to know what their system is (since applying the standard Balinese system would make, for example, Kaja
(mountainward) ALSO the direction of sunset.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">------------------- <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:black">Alice Vittrant<br>
Université d'Aix-Marseille / CNRS-DDL (UMR 5596)</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(49,52,255)"><a href="mailto:alice.vittrant@univ-amu.fr" target="_blank">alice.vittrant@univ-amu.fr</a></span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(49,52,255)"><a href="mailto:alice.vittrant@cnrs.fr" target="_blank">alice.vittrant@cnrs.fr</a></span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:black">Site personnel </span></b><span style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:black">:</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><a href="https://univ-amu.academia.edu/AliceVittrant" target="_blank">https://univ-amu.academia.edu/AliceVittrant</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail-m_-5677866038521449281gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>Prof Peter K. Austin<br>Marit Rausing Chair in Field Linguistics</div><div>MA Convenor (Term 1, 2018-19)<br>Foundation Editor, EL Publishing</div><div>Treasurer, Philological Society<br>Department of Linguistics, SOAS<br>Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square<br>London WC1H 0XG<br>United Kingdom<br><br>Homepage: <a href="https://www.soas.ac.uk/staff/staff30592.php" target="_blank">https://www.soas.ac.uk/staff/staff30592.php</a><br>Publishing: <a href="http://elpublishing.org/" target="_blank">http://elpublishing.org/</a><br>Training: <a href="http://el-training.org" target="_blank">http://el-training.org</a><br>Blog: <a href="http://el-blog.org" target="_blank">http://el-blog.org</a><br>Humanities Commons: <a href="https://hcommons.org/members/pkaustin/" target="_blank">https://hcommons.org/members/pkaustin/</a><br>Academia: <a href="https://soas.academia.edu/PeterAustin" target="_blank">https://soas.academia.edu/PeterAustin</a><br>ResearchGate: <a href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Austin2" target="_blank">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Austin2</a><br>ResearcherID: <a href="http://www.researcherid.com/rid/P-5066-2014" target="_blank">http://www.researcherid.com/rid/P-5066-2014</a><br>ORCID: <a href="http://orcid.org/0000-0002-3180-0524" target="_blank">http://orcid.org/0000-0002-3180-0524</a><br>Twitter: <a href="https://twitter.com/peterkaustin" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/peterkaustin</a><br>Facebook: <a href="https://www.facebook.com/pkaustin" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/pkaustin</a><br><br><br><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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