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<div><span><div>Dear all,<br clear="none"></div><div>A close colleague of mine,
Natalia Zaika, wrote a paper on exactly this kind of alternation "in
Lithuanian and elsewhere", see attached. There are many references to
previous studies, too.</div><div>Best,</div>Sergey Say</span><br></div><div><br></div>
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On Thursday, October 11, 2018, 4:38:54 PM GMT+3, Mike Morgan <mwmbombay@gmail.com> wrote:
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<div><div id="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192"><div><div dir="ltr">Russian also "follows" the "Finnish way" of doing things:<div>locative (prepositional) case for static: is located in a place</div><div>accusative case for dynamic: put something in a place</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Sanskrit also</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>I am guessing that the languages of this type are not, in face few as Ian suggests.</div></div><br clear="none"><div class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192gmail_quote"><div class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192yqt8981908128" id="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192yqt44823"><div dir="ltr">On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 6:42 PM Bakker, Dik <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:D.Bakker@uva.nl" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">D.Bakker@uva.nl</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"></div><blockquote class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
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<div>I think that one should not ignore</div>
<div>the semantics of the verb ('hide').</div>
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<div>Sebastian's English example (trans vs intrans) makes</div>
<div>this very clear.</div>
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<div>So, it seems not to be a clear-cut case where</div>
<div>a simple translation would render the answer</div>
<div>with respect to possible case/adposition differences.<br clear="none">
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<div>Best,</div>
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<div>Dik<br clear="none">
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<div><font size="2" face="Arial">dr. Dik Bakker </font></div>
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<div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;">Dept. of General Linguistics
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Universities of Amsterdam & Lancaster<br clear="none">
tel (+31) 35 544 75 78<br clear="none">
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Societas Linguistica Europaea <br clear="none">
Secretary<br clear="none">
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<div id="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192m_-762675444344553601divRpF186104" style="direction:ltr;"><font size="2" face="Tahoma" color="#000000"><b>Van:</b> Lingtyp [<a shape="rect" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>] namens Hannu Tommola [<a shape="rect" href="mailto:hannu.tommola@uta.fi" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">hannu.tommola@uta.fi</a>]<br clear="none">
<b>Verzonden:</b> donderdag 11 oktober 2018 14:48<br clear="none">
<b>Aan:</b> Hartmut Haberland<br clear="none">
<b>CC:</b> <a shape="rect" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br clear="none">
<b>Onderwerp:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] "I hide my stone in my house"<br clear="none">
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<p>For a Finnish speaker this is the only plausible solution..;-) , besides, it seems still to be possible to use the German _verstecken_ in this way, too. See Duden Wörterbuch: Sie versteckte das Geld in ihrem Schreibtisch / (selten:) in ihren Schreibtisch.<br clear="none">
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Best,<br clear="none">
Hannu<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Quoting Hartmut Haberland <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:hartmut@ruc.dk" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">hartmut@ruc.dk</a>>:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="border-left:2px solid blue;margin-left:2px;padding-left:12px;">
<div class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192m_-762675444344553601WordSection1">
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" lang="EN-US">I am a German speaker and immediately I find the Finnish solution very plausible.</span>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;" lang="DE">
After all, in German we also have</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" lang="DE">Der Stein liegt in der Schale. (Dative)</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" lang="DE">Ich legte den Stein in die Schale.</span>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;" lang="EN-US">
(Accusative)</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" lang="EN-US">So German is actually Finnish-type, too, in part at least. The problem seems to be with German ‘verstecken,’ that is not seen as a movement verb.</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" lang="EN-US">Cf.</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" lang="DE">Ich verstecke den Stein hinter dem (not: hinter das) Haus.</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" lang="DE">There are other German verbs like that, e.g. anbringen, ablegen, abstellen, parken, archivieren, speichern, … that work the same.</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" lang="DE">Same with Danish
<i>gemme</i> ‘verstecken, aufheben’:</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Jeg gemmer maden (inde) i spisekammeret.</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" lang="EN-US">Now
<i>inde</i> is not obligatory, actually a bit awkward, but possible. But it indicates place (where?), not direction (whither?), and the corresponding directional adverb (<i>ind</i>) would be impossible here.</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" lang="DE">With verbs like
<i>legen, stellen, setzen, sich setzen</i> German is like Finnish.</span> <span style="font-size:11.0pt;" lang="EN-US">
But they seem to be in the minority.</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" lang="EN-US">Never thought of it –</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" lang="EN-US">Wir parkten das Auto im Hof (We parked the car in the backyard), not</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" lang="DE">*Wir parkten das Auto in den Hof (*into the backyard)</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" lang="EN-US">Besides</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" lang="EN-US">Wir stellten das Auto im Hof ab (roughly same meaning, but more like ‚because it was in the way’)</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" lang="DE">I would marginally accept</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" lang="DE">Wir stellten das Auto in den Hof ab</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;" lang="EN-US">though.</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:8.5pt;" lang="EN-US">Hartmut Haberland</span></b><br clear="none">
<span style="font-size:8.5pt;" lang="EN-US">Professor emeritus</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;"><img id="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192m_-762675444344553601_x0000_i1025" alt="RUC" src="https://intra.ruc.dk/fileadmin/assets/adm/campusit/ruc.png" style="width: 100px; max-width: 100px;" data-inlineimagemanipulating="true"></span><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;" lang="EN-US">Roskilde University</span></b><br clear="none">
<span style="font-size:8.5pt;" lang="EN-US">Department of Communication and Arts</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;">Universitetsvej 1<br clear="none">
DK-4000 Roskilde<br clear="none">
Telephone: +45 46742841</span><br clear="none">
</p>
<p> </p>
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<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
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<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Fra:</span></b>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Lingtyp <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
<b>På vegne af</b> Joo Ian<br clear="none">
<b>Sendt:</b> 11. oktober 2018 13:01<br clear="none">
<b>Til:</b> <a shape="rect" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br clear="none">
<b>Emne:</b> [Lingtyp] "I hide my stone in my house"</span></p>
<p> </p>
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<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
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<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Dear all,</span></p>
<p> </p>
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<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">I am interested in the following hypothesis:</span></p>
<p> </p>
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<div>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">In most of the world's languages, the PP "in my house" in sentence (1) and (2) are the same.</span></p>
<p> </p>
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<div>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">(1) My stone is in my house.</span></p>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">(2) I hide my stone in my house.</span></p>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">For example, in German:</span></p>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">(1) Mein Stein ist "in meinem Haus".</span></p>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">(2) Ich verstecke meinen Stein "in meinem Haus".</span></p>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Although there are few languages where the PP of (1) and (2) are not identical, such as Finnish:</span></p>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">(1) Kiveni on "talossani". (Locative)</span></p>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">(2) Piilotan kiveni "talooni". (Illative)</span></p>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">But cases like Finnish are far fewer than English-like cases, I think.</span></p>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">I think this is interesting because the PP of (1) and that of (2) are semantically different: the PP in (1) is a location whereas that
in PP is the endpoint of a placement event. If I can show that the two PPs are morphologically identical in most of the world's languages, then I can suggest that placement event profiles a static location as its endpoint and not a dynamic goal, like Rohde
has argued in her dissertation (<a shape="rect" href="https://scholarship.rice.edu/handle/1911/18015" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://scholarship.rice.edu/handle/1911/18015</a>)</span></p>
<p> </p>
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<div>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Although I find this issue interesting, I would like to know if others find it so as well. What do you think? (Also, I would appreciate
if anyone can let me know any other Finnish-like cases)</span></p>
<p> </p>
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<div>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From Hong Kong,</span></p>
<p> </p>
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<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Ian Joo</span></p>
<p> </p>
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<div>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"><a shape="rect" href="http://ianjoo.academia.edu" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://ianjoo.academia.edu</a></span></p>
<p> </p>
</div>
<p class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192MsoNormal"> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
</div>
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</blockquote>
<p><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</p>
<div>Hannu Tommola<br clear="none">
Professor emer. of Russian Language (Translation Theory and Practice)<br clear="none">
School of Language, Translation and Literary Studies<br clear="none">
FIN-33014 University of Tampere, Finland</div>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote></div></div><br clear="all"><div><br clear="none"></div>-- <br clear="none"><div class="ydp533ebda4yiv3069318192gmail_signature" dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Dr Michael W Morgan<br clear="none">mwm || *U*C> || mike || माईक || માઈક || মাঈক || மாஈக || مایک ||мика || 戊流岸マイク <br clear="none">sign language linguist / linguistic typologist / Deaf education consultant<br clear="none">"Have language, will travel"<br clear="none">=====================================<br clear="none">"People who are always looking down at the bottom line will always fail to see the stars" <br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div></div></div></div></div><div class="ydp533ebda4yqt8981908128" id="ydp533ebda4yqt66757">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Lingtyp mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br clear="none"></div></div>
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