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<p>Dear all,</p>
<p>The interesting point about it is that it is more a question of
deeper meaning - what is the starting point vs. the endpoint of
the action, or its potential result - rather than a "motion" as
such.</p>
<p>For those interested to read about other Finno-Ugric languages
than the ones usually mentioned on internet, one can also take
some examples from the nearest relatives of Finnic languages in
the Fenno-Scandic area: Samic languages.<br>
</p>
<p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="+1"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:
NL" lang="NL">Generally speaking, Northern Sami appears to be
much more “<u>localizing”</u> than
English – a feature that is further accentuated by the fact
that many verbs
that take a direct or indirect object in most European
languages govern a
complement already orientated towards one of the two main
directions:</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:
NL" lang="NL">1/ with the <u>directive</u> (formerly
“illative”), verbs of emotion such
as <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">j</b></span><b
style="mso-bidi-font-weight:
normal"><span style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:X-NONE"
lang="X-NONE">áhkkit</span></b><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:X-NONE" lang="X-NONE">
‘to believe
(in)’; <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">liikot</b> ‘to
like’; <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">suhttat</b> ‘to
be angry with’ </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><i
style="mso-bidi-font-style:
normal"><span style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:X-NONE"
lang="X-NONE">Ale
suhta munnje!</span></i><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:
X-NONE" lang="X-NONE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:X-NONE" lang="X-NONE">‘Don’t
be angry with me!’</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:
X-NONE" lang="X-NONE">Also with verbs such as <b
style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">gullat</b>
‘to belong to’; <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">guoskat</b>
‘to
concern’; <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">heivet</b> ‘to
suit’,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:
X-NONE" lang="X-NONE"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>and
verbs meaning ‘to leave,
to abandon, to stay’</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:
X-NONE" lang="X-NONE"><span style="mso-tab-count:1">
</span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:
normal">Diet á</i></span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:I-SAMI-NO"
lang="I-SAMI-NO">šš</span></i><i
style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span
style="font-family:Times;
mso-ansi-language:X-NONE" lang="X-NONE">i ii guskka <u>munnje</u></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:X-NONE" lang="X-NONE">‘That
thing doesn’t concern
me [is none of my concerns’]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:
X-NONE" lang="X-NONE"><span style="mso-tab-count:1">
</span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:
normal">Dat ii heive <u>buohkaide</u></i></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:X-NONE" lang="X-NONE">‘It
doesn’t suit all (people)’</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:
X-NONE" lang="X-NONE"><span style="mso-tab-count:1">
</span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:
normal">Áddjá bázii <u>duoddarii</u></i></span><i
style="mso-bidi-font-style:
normal"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:I-SAMI-NO"
lang="I-SAMI-NO"></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:X-NONE" lang="X-NONE">‘Grandfather
stayed in the
mountain’;</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:
X-NONE" lang="X-NONE">2/ with the <u>locative/separative</u>
(formerly “inessive/elative”),
verbs of emotion such as <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">ballat</b>
‘to
fear, to be afraid of’; <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">bero</b></span><b
style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="font-family:
Times;mso-ansi-language:I-SAMI-NO" lang="I-SAMI-NO">š</span></b><b
style="mso-bidi-font-weight:
normal"><span style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:X-NONE"
lang="X-NONE">tit</span></b><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:X-NONE" lang="X-NONE">
‘to be
interested in’; <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">fuollat</b>
‘to worry
about’; <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">váruhit</b> ‘to
be careful of,
to be wary of’:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:
X-NONE" lang="X-NONE"><span style="mso-tab-count:1">
</span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:
normal">Várut <u>beatnagis</u>! </i></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:X-NONE" lang="X-NONE">‘Beware
of the dog!’</span><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:NL" lang="NL"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:
NL" lang="NL"><span style="mso-tab-count:2">
</span>(Examples from
M.M.Jocelyne Fernandez-Vest, 2011, <i>SAMI. </i></span><i><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US">An
introduction to the
language and culture</span></i><span style="font-family:Times;
mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US">, <i>with a
Sami-English-Sami lexicon (2. Grammar</i><span
style="mso-bidi-font-style:italic">, p. 33-99<i>)</i></span>,
Helsinki, Finn
Lectura.)</span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:NL" lang="NL"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:
NL" lang="NL"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="+1"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:
NL" lang="NL"> Summing up, Northern Sami, compared with
Finnish, is both </span></font></p>
<font size="+1">
</font>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="+1"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:
NL" lang="NL">• <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">morphologically</i>
less localizing
than Finnish: in modern Northern Sami, the number of local
cases has been
reduced to 2: the directive (“illative”) and the locative
(/separative) formed
from the merger of the locative and separative (respectively
referred to as
“inessive” and “elative” in Finno-Ugric grammars) (NB.
besides, no subclass of
“internal vs. external” cases as in Finnish)</span></font></p>
<font size="+1">
</font>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="+1"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:
NL" lang="NL">• <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">semantically</i>
often more
localizing : in Finnish, <b
style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">pel</b></span><b
style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span
style="font-family:Times;
mso-ansi-language:X-NONE" lang="X-NONE">ätä</span></b><span
style="font-family:
Times;mso-ansi-language:X-NONE" lang="X-NONE"> ‘to fear’, <b
style="mso-bidi-font-weight:
normal">varoa</b> ‘be careful of’ (see 2/ above) require a
partitive, i.e. one
of the object-cases (NB. originally a separative case). </span></font></p>
<font size="+1">
</font>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="+1"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:
X-NONE" lang="X-NONE">And the direction of the action can be
opposite: <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:
normal">tykätä</b> and <b
style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">pitää</b> ‘to
like’ require an elative:</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:
X-NONE" lang="X-NONE"><span style="mso-tab-count:1">
</span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:
normal">En tykkää rockmusiiki<u>sta (elative)<br>
</u></i></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:
X-NONE" lang="X-NONE"><span style="mso-tab-count:1">
</span>‘I don’t like
rockmusic.’</span><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:
NL" lang="NL"></span></p>
<p class="Texte0"><font size="+1"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:
NL" lang="NL"> </span></font></p>
<p class="Texte0"><font size="+1"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:
NL" lang="NL"></span>While the reasons for these construction
patterns are an important subject of discussion for semanticians
and cognitivists, non native speakers understand generally that
they'd be well advised to learn the construction rules by heart,
since the system is not much more logical than in other
languages with a poorer morphology. <br>
</font></p>
<p class="Texte0"><font size="+1"><br>
</font></p>
<p class="Texte0"><font size="+1">Look for instance at some examples
collected for French-speaking students:<br>
</font></p>
<p class="Texte0"><br>
</p>
<p class="Texte0"> • La direction n’est pas toujours exprimée en
français par un circonstant : c’est le <u>verbe</u> qui fait la
différence,</p>
<p class="texte"
style="margin-left:15.0pt;text-indent:0cm;mso-list:none;
tab-stops:35.4pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">– Hänel<u>tä</u>
</b><span style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">(élatif)</span><b
style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"> kuoli
poika sodan aikana</b></p>
<p class="texte"
style="margin-left:15.0pt;text-indent:0cm;mso-list:none;
tab-stops:35.4pt">‘De-lui est mort un fils pendant la guerre’ càd.
‘Il a <u>perdu</u>
un fils…’.</p>
<p class="texte"
style="margin-left:15.0pt;text-indent:0cm;mso-list:none;
tab-stops:35.4pt"><br>
</p>
<p class="texte"
style="margin-left:15.0pt;text-indent:0cm;mso-list:none;
tab-stops:35.4pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span
style="mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">– Kenel<u>tä</u> </span></b><span
style="mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">(élatif)<b
style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"> lainasit
tämän uimapuvun ?</b></span></p>
<p class="texte"
style="margin-left:15.0pt;text-indent:0cm;mso-list:none;
tab-stops:35.4pt">‘A qui as-tu <u>emprunté</u> ce maillot de
bain ?’</p>
<p class="texte"
style="margin-left:33.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1
lfo3;
tab-stops:35.4pt"><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:
Times;mso-bidi-font-family:Times"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">–<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><b
style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">Kene<u>lle</u> </b>(illatif)<b
style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"> lainasit uimapukusi ?</b></p>
<p class="texte"
style="margin-left:15.0pt;text-indent:0cm;mso-list:none;
tab-stops:35.4pt"><span style="mso-ansi-language:X-NONE"
lang="X-NONE">‘A qui
as-tu <u>prêté</u> ton maillot de bain?’</span>.</p>
<p class="texte"
style="margin-left:15.0pt;text-indent:0cm;mso-list:none;
tab-stops:35.4pt"><br>
</p>
<p class="Texte0">• sans compter qu’elle n’est pas forcément la même
dans les
deux langues : ex. <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">kysyä</b>
+
ablatif ‘demander <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">à’</i>.</p>
<p class="texte"
style="margin-left:15.0pt;text-indent:0cm;mso-list:none;
tab-stops:35.4pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">– Kysy
naapuri<u>lta</u>,
ellet usko minua !</b></p>
<p class="texte"
style="margin-left:15.0pt;text-indent:0cm;mso-list:none;
tab-stops:35.4pt">‘Demande au voisin, si tu ne me crois pas !’.</p>
<p class="texte"
style="margin-left:15.0pt;text-indent:0cm;mso-list:none;
tab-stops:35.4pt"><br>
</p>
<p class="texte"
style="margin-left:15.0pt;text-indent:0cm;mso-list:none;
tab-stops:35.4pt">(Examples from <span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:
NL" lang="NL">M.M.Jocelyne Fernandez-Vest, 2018, <i>Parlons
finnois – La Finlande, langues et cultures,</i> <i> </i></span><span
style="font-family:Times;
mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US"><i>(2. Grammaire finnoise</i><span
style="mso-bidi-font-style:italic">, p. 57-203<i>)</i></span>,
</span><span style="font-family:Times;
mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US"><span
style="font-family:Times;mso-ansi-language:
NL" lang="NL">Paris, Ed. L’Harmattan, coll. Parlons<i>)</i></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"> </b></p>
<br>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span
style="mso-ansi-language:NL" lang="NL"> </span></b>Prof.
M.M.Jocelyne FERNANDEZ-VEST <br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">CNRS & Université Sorbonne Nouvelle</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">----------------------------------------<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 11/10/2018 à 19:41, Östen Dahl a
écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:959193e4c19f41e68b9502a978b3c3af@ling.su.se">
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">The crucial property of Finnish is not so much
that it distinguishes by case the place at which something
is located from the place to which something moves as that
it uses the “endpoint of motion” cases also with some verbs
where there is no motion involved, such as ‘remain’ and
‘stay’, as was noted by Florian Siegl. There is a somewhat
analogous use of ‘from’-cases with verbs meaning ‘find’,
‘look for’, as in
<i>Hän etsii avainta taskusta </i>‘He is looking for the
key in his pocket’ (lit. ‘from the pocket’) . (‘Hide’ is
different as it may or may not involve motion.)
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">I have an old paper on this, see below.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US">Östen<o:p></o:p></span></li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:-24.0pt"><span
lang="EN-US">D<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:-24.0pt"><span
lang="EN-US">Dah Dahl, Östen. 1987. Case Grammar and
Prototypes. In René Dirven & Gunter Radden (eds.),
<i>Concepts of Case</i>, 147–161. </span>Tübingen: Narr.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:-24.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Från:</b> Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>
<b>För </b>Sergey Say<br>
<b>Skickat:</b> den 11 oktober 2018 18:52<br>
<b>Till:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Ämne:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] "I hide my stone in my house"<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">A close colleague of mine,
Natalia Zaika, wrote a paper on exactly this kind of
alternation "in Lithuanian and elsewhere", see
<a
href="https://www.academia.edu/21511423/The_directive_locative_alternation_in_Lithuanian_and_elsewhere_2016_"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://www.academia.edu/21511423/The_directive_locative_alternation_in_Lithuanian_and_elsewhere_2016_</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">There are many references to
previous studies, too.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">Sergey Say<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div id="ydpfb50e4afyahoo_quoted_0049404903">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">On
Thursday, October 11, 2018, 7:37:28 PM GMT+3, Peter
Arkadiev <<a href="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru"
moz-do-not-send="true">peterarkadiev@yandex.ru</a>>
wrote:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div id="ydpfb50e4afyiv3367376652">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">Re
Russian and the lative/essive expressions with
verbs of displacement in general I suggest
looking into the following paper:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">Nikitina,
Tatiana.
</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">Variation
in the encoding of endpoint of motion in
Russian. In: V. Hasko, R. Perelmutter (eds.),
<i>New Approaches to Slavic Verbs of Motion</i>.
Amsterdam, Philadelphia: John Benjamins, 2010,
pp. 267–290.
<a
href="https://www.academia.edu/2916470/Variation_in_the_encoding_of_endpoints_of_motion_in_Russian"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://www.academia.edu/2916470/Variation_in_the_encoding_of_endpoints_of_motion_in_Russian</a></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif;color:#26282A">Best
regards,</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif;color:#26282A">Peter</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">Peter
Arkadiev, PhD<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">Institute
of Slavic Studies<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">Russian
Academy of Sciences<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">Leninsky
prospekt 32-A 119991 Moscow<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"><a
href="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru"
moz-do-not-send="true">peterarkadiev@yandex.ru</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"><a
href="http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">11.10.2018,
16:39, "Mike Morgan" <<a
href="mailto:mwmbombay@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">mwmbombay@gmail.com</a>>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div id="ydpfb50e4afyiv3367376652yqtfd61136">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">Russian
also "follows" the "Finnish way" of doing
things:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">locative
(prepositional) case for static: is
located in a place<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">accusative
case for dynamic: put something in a place<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">Sanskrit
also<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">I
am guessing that the languages of this
type are not, in face few as Ian suggests.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">On
Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 6:42 PM Bakker, Dik
<<a href="mailto:D.Bakker@uva.nl"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">D.Bakker@uva.nl</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">I
think that one should not ignore<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">the
semantics of the verb ('hide').<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Sebastian's
English example (trans vs intrans)
makes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">this
very clear.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">So,
it seems not to be a clear-cut case
where<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">a
simple translation would render the
answer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">with
respect to possible case/adposition
differences.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Dik<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">dr.
Dik Bakker </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Dept.
of General
Linguistics<br>
Universities of
Amsterdam &
Lancaster<br>
tel (+31) 35 544 75
78<br>
<br>
<a
href="http://www.uva.nl/profiel/b/a/d.bakker/d.bakker.html"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.uva.nl/profiel/b/a/d.bakker/d.bakker.html</a><br>
<br>
Societas Linguistica
Europaea<br>
Secretary<br>
<a
href="http://www.societaslinguistica.eu/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.societaslinguistica.eu/</a></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><br>
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><a
href="http://www.societaslinguistica.eu/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.linguisticsociety.eu/</a></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center"
align="center"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif;color:black">
<hr size="2" align="center"
width="100%">
</span></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Van:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">
Lingtyp [<a
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]
namens Hannu Tommola [<a
href="mailto:hannu.tommola@uta.fi"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">hannu.tommola@uta.fi</a>]<br>
<b>Verzonden:</b> donderdag 11
oktober 2018 14:48<br>
<b>Aan:</b> Hartmut Haberland<br>
<b>CC:</b> <a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Onderwerp:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] "I
hide my stone in my house"</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"><br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif;color:black">For
a Finnish speaker this is the only
plausible solution..;-) , besides,
it seems still to be possible to
use the German _verstecken_ in
this way, too. See Duden
Wörterbuch: Sie versteckte das
Geld in ihrem Schreibtisch /
(selten:) in ihren Schreibtisch.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Hannu<br>
<br>
Quoting Hartmut Haberland <<a
href="mailto:hartmut@ruc.dk"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">hartmut@ruc.dk</a>>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
9.0pt;margin-left:1.5pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">I am a German
speaker and immediately I find
the Finnish solution very
plausible.</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"
lang="EN-US">
</span><span
style="color:#1F497D"
lang="DE">After all, in German
we also have</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="DE">Der Stein liegt in
der Schale. (Dative)</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="DE">Ich legte den Stein
in die Schale.</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"
lang="DE">
</span><span
style="color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">(Accusative)</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">So German is
actually Finnish-type, too, in
part at least. The problem
seems to be with German
‘verstecken,’ that is not seen
as a movement verb.</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">Cf.</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="DE">Ich verstecke den
Stein hinter dem (not: hinter
das) Haus.</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="DE">There are other
German verbs like that, e.g.
anbringen, ablegen, abstellen,
parken, archivieren,
speichern, … that work the
same.</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="DE">Same with Danish <i>gemme</i>
‘verstecken, aufheben’:</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">Jeg
gemmer maden (inde) i
spisekammeret.</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">Now <i>inde</i>
is not obligatory, actually a
bit awkward, but possible. But
it indicates place (where?),
not direction (whither?), and
the corresponding directional
adverb (<i>ind</i>) would be
impossible here.</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="DE">With verbs like <i>legen,
stellen, setzen, sich setzen</i>
German is like Finnish.</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"
lang="DE">
</span><span
style="color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">But they seem to
be in the minority.</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">Never thought of
it –</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">Wir parkten das
Auto im Hof (We parked the car
in the backyard), not</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="DE">*Wir parkten das
Auto in den Hof (*into the
backyard)</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">Besides</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">Wir stellten das
Auto im Hof ab (roughly same
meaning, but more like
‚because it was in the way’)</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="DE">I would marginally
accept</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="DE">Wir stellten das
Auto in den Hof ab</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">though.</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p><b><span
style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"
lang="EN-US">Hartmut
Haberland</span></b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"><br>
</span><span
style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"
lang="EN-US">Professor
emeritus</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><img
id="_x0000_i1026"
src="https://intra.ruc.dk/fileadmin/assets/adm/campusit/ruc.png"
alt="RUC"
moz-do-not-send="true"
border="0"></span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"><br>
<br>
</span><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"
lang="EN-US">Roskilde
University</span></b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"><br>
</span><span
style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"
lang="EN-US">Department of
Communication and Arts</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Universitetsvej
1<br>
DK-4000 Roskilde<br>
Telephone: +45 46742841</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"><br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid
windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
0cm 0cm
0cm;border-color:currentcolor
currentcolor">
<p><b><span style="color:black">Fra:</span></b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black">
</span><span
style="color:black">Lingtyp
<<a
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
<b>På vegne af</b> Joo Ian<br>
<b>Sendt:</b> 11. oktober
2018 13:01<br>
<b>Til:</b> <a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Emne:</b> [Lingtyp] "I
hide my stone in my house"</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Dear all,</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">I am
interested in the following
hypothesis:</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">In most of
the world's languages, the
PP "in my house" in sentence
(1) and (2) are the same.</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">(1)
My stone is in my house.</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">(2) I hide
my stone in my house.</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">For
example, in German:</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">(1)
Mein Stein ist "in meinem
Haus".</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">(2) Ich
verstecke meinen Stein "in
meinem Haus".</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Although
there are few languages
where the PP of (1) and (2)
are not identical, such as
Finnish:</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">(1)
Kiveni on "talossani".
(Locative)</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">(2)
Piilotan kiveni "talooni".
(Illative)</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">But cases
like Finnish are far fewer
than English-like cases, I
think.</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">I think
this is interesting because
the PP of (1) and that of
(2) are semantically
different: the PP in (1) is
a location whereas that in
PP is the endpoint of a
placement event. If I can
show that the two PPs are
morphologically identical in
most of the world's
languages, then I can
suggest that placement event
profiles a static location
as its endpoint and not a
dynamic goal, like Rohde has
argued in her dissertation (<a
href="https://scholarship.rice.edu/handle/1911/18015" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://scholarship.rice.edu/handle/1911/18015</a>)</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Although I
find this issue interesting,
I would like to know if
others find it so as well.
What do you think? (Also, I
would appreciate if anyone
can let me know any other
Finnish-like cases)</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">From
Hong Kong,</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Ian
Joo</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><a
href="http://ianjoo.academia.edu/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://ianjoo.academia.edu</a></span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif;color:black"><br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif;color:black">Hannu
Tommola<br>
Professor emer. of Russian
Language (Translation Theory and
Practice)<br>
School of Language, Translation
and Literary Studies<br>
FIN-33014 University of Tampere,
Finland<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#26282A">_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<a
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">Dr
Michael W Morgan<br>
mwm || *U*C> || mike || </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Nirmala
UI",sans-serif;color:#26282A">माईक</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">
||
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Nirmala
UI",sans-serif;color:#26282A">માઈક</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">
||
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Nirmala
UI",sans-serif;color:#26282A">মাঈক</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">
||
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Nirmala
UI",sans-serif;color:#26282A">மாஈக</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">
|| مایک ||мика ||
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS
Gothic";color:#26282A">戊流岸マイク</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A"><br>
sign language linguist / linguistic
typologist / Deaf education consultant<br>
"Have language, will travel"<br>
=====================================<br>
"People who are always looking down at the
bottom line will always fail to see the
stars"<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">_______________________________________________<br>
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div id="ydpfb50e4afyqtfd72037">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282A">_______________________________________________<br>
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<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
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<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
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