<html dir="ltr"><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body class="" style="text-align:left; direction:ltr;" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#2e3436" link="#2a76c6" vlink="#2e3436"><div><div>Well, the reflexive Finnish example is to some degree ambiguous, because the illative marked goal could also be governed by the reflexive -u derivation, a pattern which is almost default in standard Finnish; e.g., osallistu-a kokoukse-en <participate-inf meeting-ill> ‘to participate in a meeting’. The transitive case is ok, but the intransitive allows at least two interpretations.</div><div><br></div><div>The fact that Finnish can mark states as movement is usually mentioned with jäädä ‘to stay’ so transitive piilottaa ‘to hide’ + illative is somehow already motivated language internally:</div><div><br></div><div>Hän on Lontoo-ssa.</div><div>3sg be.3sg London-iness</div><div>‘S/he is in London.’ (inessive case)</div><div><br></div><div>Hän jää Lontoo-seen</div><div>3sg stay.3sg London-ill</div><div>‘S/he stays in London.’ (illative)</div><div><br></div><div>And a side note, there is multifunctional case. In Dolgan (Turkic, Northern Siberia) one would get dative case in both instances:</div><div><br></div><div>min hurug-u d'ahaak ih-iger kistee-bit-im</div><div>1sg letter-acc box inside-px3.dat hide-pst.res.1sg</div><div>‘I hid the letter in(to) a box.’</div><div><br></div><div>taba talak-tar is-ter-i-ger kiste-m-mit, </div><div>reindeer bush-pl inside-pl-px3-dat hide-refl-pst.res.3sg</div><div>‘The reindeer hid itself in(side) the twigs of a bush...’ (from a popular fairytale)</div><div><br></div><div>The problem is that Dolgan (and some other Siberian Turkic languages) use the dative case to encode both goal (whither) and location (where)…</div><div><br></div><div>Best, </div><div><br></div><div>Florian Siegl</div>
</div><div>On Thu, 2018-10-11 at 14:24 +0300, Denys T. wrote:</div><blockquote type="cite" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:2px #729fcf solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Ian & Sebastian, <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">at least, in Finnish it would be the same Illative case for both. Here’s a random example from the internet:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">(1) Piilouduin vessa-an</div><div class="">hide.oneself.pst.1sg toilet-ill</div><div class="">‘I’ve hidden in the toilet’ (<a href="http://vauva.fi" class="">vauva.fi</a>)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Best, </div><div class="">Denys </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:2px #729fcf solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="">On 11 Oct 2018, at 14:19, Sebastian Nordhoff <<a href="mailto:sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de" class="">sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de</a>> wrote:</div><div class=""><div class="">Hi Ian,<br class="">this might even become clearer with transitive and intransitive 'hide'.<br class="">What about<br class=""><br class="">(1) My sister hides in the garden<br class="">(2) I hide my sister in the garden<br class=""><br class="">How would this work in Finnish-style languages? (Obviously, reflexives<br class="">can complicate the picture)<br class=""><br class="">Best<br class="">Sebastian<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">On 10/11/2018 01:00 PM, Joo Ian wrote:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:2px #729fcf solid;padding-left:1ex">Dear all,<br class=""><br class="">I am interested in the following hypothesis:<br class=""><br class="">In most of the world's languages, the PP "in my house" in sentence (1) and (2) are the same.<br class=""><br class="">(1) My stone is in my house.<br class="">(2) I hide my stone in my house.<br class=""><br class="">For example, in German:<br class=""><br class="">(1) Mein Stein ist "in meinem Haus".<br class="">(2) Ich verstecke meinen Stein "in meinem Haus".<br class=""><br class="">Although there are few languages where the PP of (1) and (2) are not identical, such as Finnish:<br class=""><br class="">(1) Kiveni on "talossani". (Locative)<br class="">(2) Piilotan kiveni "talooni". (Illative)<br class=""><br class="">But cases like Finnish are far fewer than English-like cases, I think.<br class=""><br class="">I think this is interesting because the PP of (1) and that of (2) are semantically different: the PP in (1) is a location whereas that in PP is the endpoint of a placement event. If I can show that the two PPs are morphologically identical in most of the world's languages, then I can suggest that placement event profiles a static location as its endpoint and not a dynamic goal, like Rohde has argued in her dissertation (<a href="https://scholarship.rice.edu/handle/1911/18015" class="">https://scholarship.rice.edu/handle/1911/18015</a>)<br class=""><br class="">Although I find this issue interesting, I would like to know if others find it so as well. What do you think? (Also, I would appreciate if anyone can let me know any other Finnish-like cases)<br class=""><br class="">From Hong Kong,<br class="">Ian Joo<br class=""><a href="http://ianjoo.academia.edu" class="">http://ianjoo.academia.edu</a><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Lingtyp mailing list<br class="">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org<br class="">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp<br class=""><br class=""></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br class="">Lingtyp mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" class="">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br class="">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp<br class=""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div><pre>_______________________________________________</pre><pre>Lingtyp mailing list</pre><pre><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a></pre><pre><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></pre><pre><br></pre></blockquote></body></html>