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<body><div>Note, however, that for <i>hiding</i> things Russian actually uses the locative:<br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Я положил папку в <b>ящик</b> (I put the.file in the.drawer) vs Я спрятал папку в <b>ящике</b> (I hid the.file in the.drawer).<br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Moreover, some verbs seem to have changed their behaviour in the last 100 years or so and became more locative. E.g., in the 19th c. it was ok to <i>lock</i> someone in a room-ACC (запереть в комнату), but today everybody would use room-LOC (запереть в комнате).<br></div>
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<div>On Thu, Oct 11, 2018, at 6:36 AM, Mike Morgan wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div>Russian also "follows" the "Finnish way" of doing things:<br></div>
<div>locative (prepositional) case for static: is located in a place<br></div>
<div>accusative case for dynamic: put something in a place<br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Sanskrit also<br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I am guessing that the languages of this type are not, in face few as Ian suggests.<br></div>
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<div defang_data-gmailquote="yes"><div dir="ltr">On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 6:42 PM Bakker, Dik <<a href="mailto:D.Bakker@uva.nl">D.Bakker@uva.nl</a>> wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote defang_data-gmailquote="yes" style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);border-left-style:solid;border-left-width:1px;padding-left:1ex;"><div style="font-family:Arial;font-size:14px;"><div style="direction:ltr;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:12pt;"><div>I think that one should not ignore<br></div>
<div>the semantics of the verb ('hide').<br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Sebastian's English example (trans vs intrans) makes<br></div>
<div>this very clear.<br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>So, it seems not to be a clear-cut case where<br></div>
<div>a simple translation would render the answer<br></div>
<div>with respect to possible case/adposition differences.<br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Best,<br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Dik<br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><div><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px;"><div style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px;"><div style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px;"><div style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px;"><div style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px;"><div style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px;"><div style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px;"><div style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px;"><div><span class="font" style="font-family:Arial"><span class="size" style="font-size:small">dr. Dik Bakker </span></span><br></div>
<div><span class="font" style="font-family:Arial"><span class="size" style="font-size:small"></span></span><br></div>
<div><span class="font" style="font-family:Arial"><span class="size" style="font-size:small"><span class="size" style="font-size:10pt">Dept. of General Linguistics <br> Universities of Amsterdam & Lancaster<br> tel (+31) 35 544 75 78<br> <br> <a href="http://www.uva.nl/profiel/b/a/d.bakker/d.bakker.html">http://www.uva.nl/profiel/b/a/d.bakker/d.bakker.html</a><br> <br> Societas Linguistica Europaea <br> Secretary<br> <a href="http://www.societaslinguistica.eu/">http://www.societaslinguistica.eu/</a><br> </span></span></span><span class="font" style="font-family:Arial"><span class="size" style="font-size:small"><span class="size" style="font-size:10pt"><a href="http://www.societaslinguistica.eu/">http://www.linguisticsociety.eu/</a></span></span></span></div>
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<div style="direction:ltr;"><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span class="font" style="font-family:Tahoma"><span class="size" style="font-size:small"><b>Van:</b> Lingtyp [<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>] namens Hannu Tommola [<a href="mailto:hannu.tommola@uta.fi">hannu.tommola@uta.fi</a>]<br> <b>Verzonden:</b> donderdag 11 oktober 2018 14:48<br> <b>Aan:</b> Hartmut Haberland<br> <b>CC:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br> <b>Onderwerp:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] "I hide my stone in my house"<br> </span></span></span></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><p><div>For a Finnish speaker this is the only plausible solution..;-) , besides, it seems still to be possible to use the German _verstecken_ in this way, too. See Duden Wörterbuch: Sie versteckte das Geld in ihrem Schreibtisch / (selten:) in ihren Schreibtisch.<br></div>
<div> <br></div>
<div> Best,<br></div>
<div> Hannu<br></div>
<div> <br></div>
<div> Quoting Hartmut Haberland <<a href="mailto:hartmut@ruc.dk">hartmut@ruc.dk</a>>:<br></div>
</p><blockquote type="cite" style="border-left-color:blue;border-left-style:solid;border-left-width:2px;margin-left:2px;padding-left:12px;"><div><p><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">I am a German speaker and immediately I find the Finnish solution very plausible.</span></span></span> <span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> After all, in German we also have</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Der Stein liegt in der Schale. (Dative)</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p><p><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Ich legte den Stein in die Schale.</span></span></span> <span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> (Accusative)</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">So German is actually Finnish-type, too, in part at least. The problem seems to be with German ‘verstecken,’ that is not seen as a movement verb.</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Cf.</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Ich verstecke den Stein hinter dem (not: hinter das) Haus.</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">There are other German verbs like that, e.g. anbringen, ablegen, abstellen, parken, archivieren, speichern, … that work the same.</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Same with Danish <i>gemme</i> ‘verstecken, aufheben’:</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Jeg gemmer maden (inde) i spisekammeret.</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Now <i>inde</i> is not obligatory, actually a bit awkward, but possible. But it indicates place (where?), not direction (whither?), and the corresponding directional adverb (<i>ind</i>) would be impossible here.</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">With verbs like <i>legen, stellen, setzen, sich setzen</i> German is like Finnish.</span></span></span> <span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> But they seem to be in the minority.</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Never thought of it –</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Wir parkten das Auto im Hof (We parked the car in the backyard), not</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p><p><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">*Wir parkten das Auto in den Hof (*into the backyard)</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Besides</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p><p><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Wir stellten das Auto im Hof ab (roughly same meaning, but more like ‚because it was in the way’)</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p><p><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">I would marginally accept</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p><p><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Wir stellten das Auto in den Hof ab</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p><p><span class="colour" style="color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">though.</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><div><p><div><b><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:8.5pt">Hartmut Haberland</span></span></span></b><br></div>
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</p><p> <br></p><p><div><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:8.5pt">Universitetsvej 1<br> DK-4000 Roskilde<br> Telephone: +45 46742841</span></span></span></div>
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</p><p> <br></p></div>
<p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><div><div style="border-right-color:currentcolor;border-right-style:none;border-right-width:medium;border-bottom-color:currentcolor;border-bottom-style:none;border-bottom-width:medium;border-left-color:currentcolor;border-left-style:none;border-left-width:medium;border-image-outset:0;border-image-repeat:stretch;border-image-slice:100%;border-image-source:none;border-image-width:1;border-top-color:rgb(225, 225, 225);border-top-style:solid;border-top-width:1pt;padding-top:3pt;padding-right:0cm;padding-bottom:0cm;padding-left:0cm;"><p><b><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Fra:</span></span></b> <span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> <b>På vegne af</b> Joo Ian<br> <b>Sendt:</b> 11. oktober 2018 13:01<br> <b>Til:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br> <b>Emne:</b> [Lingtyp] "I hide my stone in my house"</span></span></p><p> <br></p></div>
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<p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p><div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Dear all,</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p></div>
<div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">I am interested in the following hypothesis:</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p></div>
<div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">In most of the world's languages, the PP "in my house" in sentence (1) and (2) are the same.</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p></div>
<div><p><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">(1) My stone is in my house.</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p></div>
<div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">(2) I hide my stone in my house.</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p></div>
<div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">For example, in German:</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p></div>
<div><p><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">(1) Mein Stein ist "in meinem Haus".</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p></div>
<div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">(2) Ich verstecke meinen Stein "in meinem Haus".</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p></div>
<div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Although there are few languages where the PP of (1) and (2) are not identical, such as Finnish:</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p></div>
<div><p><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">(1) Kiveni on "talossani". (Locative)</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p></div>
<div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">(2) Piilotan kiveni "talooni". (Illative)</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p></div>
<div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">But cases like Finnish are far fewer than English-like cases, I think.</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p></div>
<div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">I think this is interesting because the PP of (1) and that of (2) are semantically different: the PP in (1) is a location whereas that
in PP is the endpoint of a placement event. If I can show that the two PPs are morphologically identical in most of the world's languages, then I can suggest that placement event profiles a static location as its endpoint and not a dynamic goal, like Rohde
has argued in her dissertation (<a href="https://scholarship.rice.edu/handle/1911/18015">https://scholarship.rice.edu/handle/1911/18015</a>)</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p></div>
<div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Although I find this issue interesting, I would like to know if others find it so as well. What do you think? (Also, I would appreciate
if anyone can let me know any other Finnish-like cases)</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p></div>
<div><div><p><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">From Hong Kong,</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p></div>
<div><p><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Ian Joo</span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p></div>
<div><p><span class="colour" style="color:black"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Arial", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"><a href="http://ianjoo.academia.edu">http://ianjoo.academia.edu</a></span></span></span><br></p><p> <br></p></div>
<p> <br></p><p> <br></p><p> <br></p></div>
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</blockquote><p><div><br></div>
</p><div><div>Hannu Tommola<br></div>
<div> Professor emer. of Russian Language (Translation Theory and Practice)<br></div>
<div> School of Language, Translation and Literary Studies<br></div>
<div> FIN-33014 University of Tampere, Finland<br></div>
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<div><br></div>
<div>-- <br></div>
<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>Dr Michael W Morgan<br></div>
<div>mwm || *U*C> || mike || माईक || માઈક || মাঈক || மாஈக || مایک ||мика || 戊流岸マイク <br></div>
<div>sign language linguist / linguistic typologist / Deaf education consultant<br></div>
<div>"Have language, will travel"<br></div>
<div>=====================================<br></div>
<div>"People who are always looking down at the bottom line will always fail to see the stars" <br></div>
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